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[King Zultan]

I think having extra black hawks is a good idea, especially when more aliens show up so we can engage multiple sights at the same time.

[Naturegirl1999]

I think having extra black hawks is a good idea, especially when more aliens show up so we can engage multiple sights at the same time.

+1, don’t we need to design something new, though? Or am I thinking the wrong phase?

[coleslaw35]

I'll just toss this in so that votes are easier to follow.

As a note, A Balanced Approach is impossible given our finances, however we can purchase 2 F-22s and one Black Hawk, rather than two. As such, I've taken the liberty of modifying that suggestion to the latter. Obviously, if that isn't how it was intended, feel free to quote and correct.

I added Madman and Naturegirl with ?s because they implied they favored an approach towards more Black Hawks, but I'm not entirely sure whether they would necessarily favor the plan I assigned their votes to. If either of you think I'm misinterpreting, feel free to quote and correct.

A Balanced Approach (2 F-22s, 1 Black Hawks): (2?) Madman?, Naturegirl?
All the Fighters (3 F-22s): (1) ConscriptFive, Coleslaw

I cast my vote for All the Fighters because if we invest too much into Black Hawks we're not going to have the air power to at least shoot down any contacts before they can fulfill their missions, regardless of whether we let the crash site ops expire. I think two Black Hawks, and as such two dedicated squads, will keep us from spreading our resources (i.e. equipment) too thin among what would essentially be a conscript army of XCOM infantry squads (if we just showered the aliens in Black Hawk strike teams), and we're going to have enough time between turns to utilize the two Black Hawks on ops without having to miss any sits (unless we're absolutely swamped in crash sites, but even if that's the case it'd be preferable to lots of contacts in the air, with none crashed/landed.)

[Madman198237]

Oops. Apparently I somehow got a 25 credit cost in my head for the Black Hawks instead of the 50 cr cost.

[King Zultan]

A Balanced Approach (2 F-22s, 1 Black Hawks): (3?) King Zultan, Madman?, Naturegirl?
All the Fighters (3 F-22s): (1) ConscriptFive, Coleslaw

[Madman198237]

A Balanced Approach (2 F-22s, 1 Black Hawks): (3?) King Zultan, Madman, Naturegirl?
All the Fighters (3 F-22s): (2) ConscriptFive, Coleslaw

[Naturegirl1999]

A Balanced Approach (2 F-22s, 1 Black Hawks): (2) King Zultan, Madman
All the Fighters (3 F-22s): (3) ConscriptFive, Coleslaw, NG1999

[Screech9791]

3 raptors have been purchased, at the cost of 180 credits.

It is now the tactical phase. How should we storm the crash site?

Balance: 10 credits

(you can rename the two alien species encountered so far (lizardmen and greys) to something else if you want)

Spoiler: Designs (click to show/hide)

Weapons:
-M16: An assault rifle chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO rounds. Has 20 round mags and questionable reliability since our suppliers either fail to trust us with actually decent equipment, or just hate us. Acceptable for medium range.
 -Low/Infinite/Unreliable
-M9: A semi automatic pistol chambered in 9x19mm with 15 round mags. Compact, but short range.
 -Low/Infinite/None
-Tavor-21: A bullpup assault rifle chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO rounds, and it's compatible with the same STANAG magazines used by our M16s. We've managed to procure a lot of 30 round STANAG magazines, primarily to use with it, but we can also load the 30 rounders into our M16s if we get desperate. The integrated M203 grenade launcher is quite heavy, but we've also gotten integrated reflex sights on these rifles.
 -Below Average/10cr/None

Armor:
-Basic Armor: Surplus armor vests and helmets, worn over surplus camo. It might provide some protection from kinetic attacks, but who knows. Video cameras have been attached to the helmets, for live combat footage.
 -Infinite Supply

Aircraft:
-Condor: A modified F-16, that has been optimized for UFO combat. Various modifications include heat resistant metals being used for plating, larger fuel tanks, and a lighter payload to reduce weight.
 -1 cannon hardpoint, 4 light hardpoints
 -Low/25cr/None
-F-22 Raptor: A fast air superiority stealth fighter, with 6 internal light hardpoints, and an internally mounted cannon hardpoint. It's expensive, but it'll be worth the cost, especially compared to the modified surplus F-16s we've been using until now.
 -1 cannon hardpoint, 6 light hardpoints
 -High/60cr/Long Repairs

-Blackhawk: A transport helicopter. Has a decent amount of room.
 -Can carry 8 soldiers and 1 vehicle
 -Low/50cr/None

Aircraft Weapons:
-Autocannon: A modified Vulcan 20mm autocannon that's used on our interceptors. It has enough ammo for 300 shots, and shoots quite fast, but it hasn't been tested for anti-UFO usage.
 -Mountable on Cannon hardpoints
 -Low/Free/None
-Sidewinder Missiles: Light air to air missiles. One per hardpoint.
 -Mountable on Light/Heavy hardpoints
 -Low/Free/None

Spoiler: Research (click to show/hide)

Light Scout: Our team has finished preliminary studies on the recovered UFO hull, which was designated the "Light Scout". It is very small compared to some of the orbital signals we have detected; barely more than a probe.
It is approximately a dozen meters from nose to tail, comprising a "saucer" section and two "wings" filled with what we believe to be sensor equipment. Two small thrusters mounted on the back of the saucer provide propulsion. The craft does not appear to have a reactor of any kind, instead seeming to draw power from rechargeable capacitors in the wings. It is almost certainly not capable of independent operation, instead it would need to be launched from a "home" vessel at the start of each mission (and return there afterwards).

It has poor combat performance for such an advanced vessel; it is no match for one of our Condor interceptors. The main weapon is an energy cannon mounted beneath the saucer, which has a relatively slow fire speed and a shorter range than our Sidewinder missiles. The armoured shell is remarkably strong and impressively heat-resistant given it is only a few millimeters thick, but is too thin to offer much protection against modern munitions. Enjoy the gentle introduction while it lasts, commanders - I doubt the larger ships will be such easy prey.

Spoiler: Storage (click to show/hide)

Phase 1 Human Weapons:
-IWI Tavor-21: 8
-Remington 870: 1

Phase 1 Alien Weapons:
-Alien Orange Rifle: 4
-Alien Orange Pistol: 4
-Alien Beam Rifle: 4
-Alien Beam Pistol: 6

Lizardman Corpses:
-2 lizardman guards
-5 lizardman crewmen
-1 lizardman pilot

Grey Corpses:
-4 grey guards
-3 grey soldiers
-4 grey crewmen
-1 grey pilot

Phase 1 UFOs:
-1 Light Scout Wreck
-1 Scout Wreck

Spoiler: Hangar (click to show/hide)

Condor-001: Available | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 4x Sidewinder Missiles
Condor-002: Repairing (1 turn) | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 4x Sidewinder Missiles
Condor-003: Repairing (1 turn) | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 4x Sidewinder Missiles
Condor-004: Available | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 4x Sidewinder Missiles
Condor-005: Retrieving (1 turn) | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 4x Sidewinder Missiles
Condor-006: Available | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 4x Sidewinder Missiles
Raptor-001: Available | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 6x Sidewinder Missiles
Raptor-002: Available | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 6x Sidewinder Missiles
Raptor-003: Available | Loadout: 1x Autocannon, 6x Sidewinder Missiles

Blackhawk-001: Available
Blackhawk-001: Available

Spoiler: Operation Sites (click to show/hide)

USA:
 -Crashsite-003: 1 crashed light scout, desert, expires in 2 turns, minimal estimated hostile count

[coleslaw35]

Sending both Black Hawks to a light scout operation seems like overkill.

What types of grenades do we have at our disposal? Do we have flashbangs/smoke grenades?

Send in one Black Hawk with a full complement of soldiers, all armed with Tavors.

Upon arriving at the landing site, attempt to land behind nearby sand dunes for cover from any potential incoming fire. Operate in two teams of 4. One team advances while the other covers the other team's movements. Utilize smoke grenades (if we have them, whether from 40mm smoke rounds or actual smoke grenades) for concealment when/if needed, deserts don't have a whole lot of cover. After clearing the battlefield and upon arriving at the UFO, throw in a flashbang before breaching, if we have them.

[Madman198237]

There's no COST to deploying them, however, so:

OPLAN02: Aggressive Maneuvers
Deploy 2 Black Hawks to Crashsite 003, four Tavors in each squad.
One squad is to provide cover and draws enemy attention to one flank while the other works their way towards the UFO from the other. The first Black Hawk is to land troops at a good distance from the UFO and advances to medium range while engaging, the second Black Hawk is to wait and approach rapidly from the rear and land close to cut off the line of retreat for the aliens.

Or possibly

OPLAN02: Being Careful
Both Black Hawks land at long range from the UFOs and infantry approach on foot from two directions, methodically clearing their way to the UFO with minimal casualties and threat of damage.

[coleslaw35]

There's no COST to deploying them, however

I think there's merit to the idea of quality over quantity. Shoving more infantry into the fray just because we can isn't ideal from a tactical/strategic perspective.

[Madman198237]

1. We're still using all the quality troops we can
2. It isn't "ideal", no, ideally we'd have a large quantity of quality troops. There are no downsides, tactical or strategic, from bringing as many (reasonable) numbers as you can, not at this point anyway. Shoving more infantry into the fray is ABSOLUTELY a tactically good thing to do, because if you outnumber the enemy your chances to win get much higher.

Basically, we can add more troops to this assault, so we absolutely SHOULD. It makes our chances to win higher and the likelihood we'll take casualties lower and there is simply no downside to doing so. Throwing unarmed infantry against tanks, yeah that's never going to work. But not only are our guys NOT unarmed, they're also not drastically underpowered compared to the enemies, not yet. So while they don't have fancy equipment (yet), that's OK, because the basic equipment is still capable of killing aliens.

It would be foolish not to leverage every advantage we can.

Camel Spider: (0)
Aggressive Maneuvers: (0)
Being Carefuly: (1) Madman

[Screech9791]

What types of grenades do we have at our disposal? Do we have flashbangs/smoke grenades?

Currently only 40mm High Explosive grenades for the M203s.

[coleslaw35]

It would be foolish not to leverage every advantage we can.

All I'm saying is that I don't think it's currently a meaningful advantage, rather one that'll be more relevant later. By then though we'll have designed a craft capable of carrying a satisfactory amount of units into battle. I feel as though the only meaningful combat information we're going to get out of a mission like this if we intentionally outnumber the probably 2-4 defenders is "how many defending aliens can survive a hail of bullets and 40mm HE grenades from 16 soldiers?" Seems excessive and unnecessary for victory in this case.

EDIT: I don't personally subscribe to the idea because pure numbers doesn't necessitate better odds. I think the Vietnamese War is an example of how effective of an advantage defending forces can have, but I'll grant you that the North Vietnamese were infinitely more familiar with their surroundings and had almost every tactical advantage possible. Then again, the North Vietnamese also didn't have energy guns.

Perhaps I'm operating under the mechanics of Xenonauts too much, which this forum game is based on. In Xenonauts, at least, it's always good to at least have a transport w/ squad on standby in case of any sudden and unexpected terror/landed UFO/base attack missions, but Xenonauts is real time and not turn-based like this. It's possible that's where I'm getting hung up.

Obviously I don't expect/demand people to do things my way, and I'm not going to be offended or anything if I'm voted against, I'm just pushing back against others' rationales so that I can see the justifications and thought process behind them, of which I think is valuable.

Currently only 40mm High Explosive grenades for the M203s.

Damn. How much would expanded ordnance cost, or would this be something we'd have to "research?" And if we do "research" them, would we handle it like Xenonauts where you get an infinite amount?

[Madman198237]

OK, so, in the Vietnamese War the asymmetry was in the US forces being outnumbered *and* less familiar with the terrain and operating in a jungle. If you look at some of the special forces operations, though, you find that once the US forces *did* learn how to operate properly in a jungle, the incredible lopsidedness of the fight became apparent, with four-man US specops patrols wiping out disproportionately valuable NVA and Viet Cong assets and groups.

Anyway, I'm seeing quite a lot of reasons for why we shouldn't necessarily swamp a single site with guys at the expense of another target, but not one that actually suggests any reason to not kill the aliens deader than dead and ensure there's no chance of a screwup.