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[Manveru Taurënér]

Generally speaking (tho not always) when race is talked about in a fantasy setting it refers to what we'd consider different species (though depending on if the fantasy world in question even has real life evolution/biology as a basis for life species might not even be a relevant concept), or different groups clearly set apart by the likes of say a curse changing their appearance and abilities. Kinda surprised by the amount of people dragging real world "race" concepts into it when there was no hint of it in the OP.

I'm all for the idea regardless, it only makes sense if a certain fantasy species has unique needs/predispositions that they'd group together to say make an elven enclave in a human town with more trees and wildlife etc to suit their needs (or humans preferring to live topside in a dwarven fortress, etc), especially if they have their own languages which even further incentivises grouping up with people of a similar background (just like people do IRL).

There's not even a need to bring prejudice into it at all, though I'd personally prefer to see it added (and is usually much more justified as a concept in fantasy where it's possible to have actual innately evil races like you know, goblins from hell about).

[Strik3r]

Wow this thread glows in the dark.

This idea is bad altogether, simulates nothing of value, adds no gameplay, and is just the right wing equivalent to posts asking for transgender dwarfs.
Most of the people who posted in this thread can do better than that.

Edit :
How do you define a race, in the game ? If that's human/elves/dwarfs/gobs, fine, that already exist. Racial civilizations are a thing already. If that's down to the phenotypical level, the game does not track those. The idea is dead in the water already. I *assume* it coule be feasible to add trackers to entities to keep track of their ethnic background, at the price of development time and CPU power, but for what ? To simulate fantasy segregation ? Seriously...

Dwarven cavalry in fortress mode. That's a better idea.

No suprises there, "something that someone doesn't like is worthless to them" big fuckin' shock, right? Also, i love the little political quip, i think its gonna result in some fun comments from both sides of the political spectrum. Shame that political shitflinging just gets threads locked, its always fun to watch.

As the CPU thing, we wouldn't have to count individual fucking CPU cycles if DF was programmed properly lol.

And i agree that "Dwarven cavalry in fortress mode" is probably a better idea, and easier to implement.

Also furry dwarves.

Ehh, whatever. At least in DF, purging them is easy and fun: "Please stand on that drawbridge above the magma sea. Don't worry, its totally safe!".

[Hamsmagoo]

Wow this thread glows in the dark.

This idea is bad altogether, simulates nothing of value, adds no gameplay, and is just the right wing equivalent to posts asking for transgender dwarfs.
Most of the people who posted in this thread can do better than that.

Edit :
How do you define a race, in the game ? If that's human/elves/dwarfs/gobs, fine, that already exist. Racial civilizations are a thing already. If that's down to the phenotypical level, the game does not track those. The idea is dead in the water already. I *assume* it coule be feasible to add trackers to entities to keep track of their ethnic background, at the price of development time and CPU power, but for what ? To simulate fantasy segregation ? Seriously...

Dwarven cavalry in fortress mode. That's a better idea.

No suprises there, "something that someone doesn't like is worthless to them" big fuckin' shock, right? Also, i love the little political quip, i think its gonna result in some fun comments from both sides of the political spectrum. Shame that political shitflinging just gets threads locked, its always fun to watch.

As the CPU thing, we wouldn't have to count individual fucking CPU cycles if DF was programmed properly lol.

And i agree that "Dwarven cavalry in fortress mode" is probably a better idea, and easier to implement.

Also furry dwarves.

Ehh, whatever. At least in DF, purging them is easy and fun: "Please stand on that drawbridge above the magma sea. Don't worry, its totally safe!".

I was being sarcastic. I'm referencing the fursuits that were added into CDDA

[Strik3r]

I was being sarcastic. I'm referencing the fursuits that were added into CDDA

I know, and i responded in kind with a bit of classic DF humor.

In regards to the fursuits thing: I remember hearing something about some furry drama having happened related to CDDA at some point. Somehow i suspect there's more to the drama than just a few fursuits.
Whatever, to me it's just more proof that furries do ruin absolutely everything, as if i didn't have enough proof already.

[Cathar]

No suprises there, "something that someone doesn't like is worthless to them" big fuckin' shock, right?

I was in the wrong at the moment I decided to post in a radioactive thread and I take full responsability

Generally speaking (tho not always) when race is talked about in a fantasy setting it refers to what we'd consider different species (though depending on if the fantasy world in question even has real life evolution/biology as a basis for life species might not even be a relevant concept), or different groups clearly set apart by the likes of say a curse changing their appearance and abilities. Kinda surprised by the amount of people dragging real world "race" concepts into it when there was no hint of it in the OP.

I'm all for the idea regardless, it only makes sense if a certain fantasy species has unique needs/predispositions that they'd group together to say make an elven enclave in a human town with more trees and wildlife etc to suit their needs (or humans preferring to live topside in a dwarven fortress, etc), especially if they have their own languages which even further incentivises grouping up with people of a similar background (just like people do IRL).

There's not even a need to bring prejudice into it at all, though I'd personally prefer to see it added (and is usually much more justified as a concept in fantasy where it's possible to have actual innately evil races like you know, goblins from hell about).

I'm very much against the idea not only because it is bait, but because it goes against the "emergent narrative" idea the game is going for. Just for the exemple you propose ; elves making an enclave in human towns...why ? Elves in human town already have a history generated by worldgen. If you find an elf in a human town, there is a story behind it, rest assured. You'll find that second generation elven immigrates will not care at all about nature and plants (altho nature will still recognize them as their own) and will have developped human ethics. They will have made human friends and will be at odds with other elves over the treatment of plants. That's great. DF works as intended and proposes emerging narrative.

Now the idea proposed tries to superimpose a narrative of racial tensions over a story that, by all account, can stand on its own. Again, for what ? Are stories of racial tensions so importants that we want to slam them in where they are holy uneeded? Franckly I don't think so.

TL;DR : I know dwarves would poop in real life, but I'm against simulating poop in game.

[Hamsmagoo]

No suprises there, "something that someone doesn't like is worthless to them" big fuckin' shock, right?

I know baits have feelings

Generally speaking (tho not always) when race is talked about in a fantasy setting it refers to what we'd consider different species (though depending on if the fantasy world in question even has real life evolution/biology as a basis for life species might not even be a relevant concept), or different groups clearly set apart by the likes of say a curse changing their appearance and abilities. Kinda surprised by the amount of people dragging real world "race" concepts into it when there was no hint of it in the OP.

I'm all for the idea regardless, it only makes sense if a certain fantasy species has unique needs/predispositions that they'd group together to say make an elven enclave in a human town with more trees and wildlife etc to suit their needs (or humans preferring to live topside in a dwarven fortress, etc), especially if they have their own languages which even further incentivises grouping up with people of a similar background (just like people do IRL).

There's not even a need to bring prejudice into it at all, though I'd personally prefer to see it added (and is usually much more justified as a concept in fantasy where it's possible to have actual innately evil races like you know, goblins from hell about).

I'm very much against the idea not only because it is bait, but because it goes against the "emergent narrative" idea the game is going for. Just for the exemple you propose ; elves making an enclave in human towns...why ? Elves in human town already have a history generated by worldgen. If you find an elf in a human town, there is a story behind it, rest assured. You'll find that second generation elven immigrates will not care at all about nature and plants (altho nature will still recognize them as their own) and will have developped human ethics. They will have made human friends and will be at odds with other elves over the treatment of plants. That's great. DF works as intended and proposes emerging narrative.

Now the idea proposed tries to superimpose a narrative of racial tensions over a story that, by all account, can stand on its own. Again, for what ? Are stories of racial tensions so importants that we want to slam them in where they are holy uneeded? Franckly I don't think so.

TL;DR : I know dwarves would poop in real life, but I'm against simulating poop in game.

But what if the mayor of your fort creates an "elf day parade" to bring in some tourism revenue and it creates tension with the dwarves because it completely blocks all routes across 5th avenue?

[Cathar]

Can you pull the lever while I stand on that drawbridge over the magma sea for the sweet relief of death

[Hamsmagoo]

Can you pull the lever while I stand on that drawbridge over the magma sea for the sweet relief of death

Sorry. That was more sarcasm. What I meant to say is that I think OP's suggestion was less about creating racial tension and more about elves and humans petitioning for things like above-ground locations.

[Strik3r]

TL;DR : I know dwarves would poop in real life, but I'm against simulating poop in game.

I'd say these two things have a roughly equal chance of being implemented, that is: basically fucking none.

Toady has made it clear he has no intention of implementing racism in any form and i don't doubt him.
He also doesn't exactly like "icky" stuff, so even if DF would get a way-too-detailed farming system, he's still likely to dodge the "fertilizer" part.

and no, i have no idea why i bothered to type this out lol.

[Cathar]

I mean my point still stand. If I'm getting elves in my dwarven fort (that by itself is a challenge), I don't want them to segregate. I want them to make babies that will bread their beards and die of untreated ulcer like the rest.
Else, religious and guilds have a reason to associate. They have something in common. They by definition spend time together, and membership gives them benefit. Members of a race, not so much. What could they want a building for ? Teaching each other how to elf? But I don't want them to elf, I want them to dwarf and they better stop elfing real soon.

I'd say these two things have a roughly equal chance of being implemented, that is: basically fucking none.

and no, i have no idea why i bothered to type this out lol.

It made me chuckle tho. And yeah basically that. This whole conversation doesn't really make sense.

[Hamsmagoo]

You know, there is a way to implement it without creating some corny commentary about race relations and while also contributing to the emergent narrative. If, as an example, it's done in the spirit of something like the dwarven district in Stormwind, where dwarves have adapted to living above ground, but still prefer to fill the atmosphere with tons of forge smoke.

[Cathar]

But that would be really hatty, wouldn't it? The interest of emergent narrative - in my estimation - is precisely to avoid clichés and tropes. Why would dwarves like the smoke ? It makes sense only if you accept the idea that dwarves are born to be smiths, which they aren't in DF. They are not even better smiths than humans - their civilization is simply more advanced in its knowledge of alloys.

A dwarf living in a human civilization would likely be hardly recognizable from a short, sturdy human with violent moodswings

[Manveru Taurënér]

I'm very much against the idea not only because it is bait, but because it goes against the "emergent narrative" idea the game is going for. Just for the exemple you propose ; elves making an enclave in human towns...why ? Elves in human town already have a history generated by worldgen. If you find an elf in a human town, there is a story behind it, rest assured. You'll find that second generation elven immigrates will not care at all about nature and plants (altho nature will still recognize them as their own) and will have developped human ethics. They will have made human friends and will be at odds with other elves over the treatment of plants. That's great. DF works as intended and proposes emerging narrative.

Now the idea proposed tries to superimpose a narrative of racial tensions over a story that, by all account, can stand on its own. Again, for what ? Are stories of racial tensions so importants that we want to slam them in where they are holy uneeded? Franckly I don't think so.

TL;DR : I know dwarves would poop in real life, but I'm against simulating poop in game.

Kinda doubt the original post was bait, though certainly some of the follow-up ones would qualify. And it doesn't go against emergent narrative at all but rather promotes it. Elves turning into long-eared humans as soon as they move to a human town isn't much of an emergent narrative at all if that's always the result, whereas procedurally getting different versions of city-elves in different parts of the land with varying degrees of assimilation depending on how they ended up there and their past culture is much more interesting. Some finding ways to coexist by keeping their own little groves in some district of the city, others adopting a bit more of the human culture but say favoring travel out into the countryside to connect with the nature force they still worship, whereas others might keep barely any links to their past depending on the circumstances they ended up leaving, etc etc. If they indeed have an innate connection to nature I doubt it would be thrown away so quickly nor be more than a gimmick, in some cases elves may have a need to be around nature just as we need to breathe unless they want to whither away whereas in other worlds it's more of a religious thing (that's what's mythgen is gonna be fore after all.


(racial tension is a completely different subject that I can agree to being a mixed bag, but one I'd prefer to see as well since it also lends itself to more interesting emergent story)

[Hamsmagoo]

But that would be really hatty, wouldn't it? The interest of emergent narrative - in my estimation - is precisely to avoid clichés and tropes. Why would dwarves like the smoke ? It makes sense only if you accept the idea that dwarves are born to be smiths, which they aren't in DF. They are not even better smiths than humans - their civilization is simply more advanced in its knowledge of alloys.

A dwarf living in a human civilization would likely be hardly recognizable from a short, sturdy human with violent moodswings

To be fair, all these mundane races already have inherent traits that are constant across worldgen.  But if thre were additional racial affinities that do get generated, they could lead to flavor.
I don't like OP's entire idea, but I do kind of like the idea of a human district and it would be cool if it unlocks addtional useless crap to make.  Let's say, hypothetically, your fort gets enough human citizens to petition for a "human district." You designate it with "i" and put it wherever you want. Within this zone, and ONLY within this zone, you are able to build unlocked workshops that create bows and turbans and other human items. Quarters and other rooms you build in there are more likely to be claimed by humans, but it also depends on the human's generated preferences.

[Cathar]

Maybe I'm not clear enough, so to put things extra clear : I really like the idea that race and culture are detached.

I really want elves to integrate into humans communities and vice versa. In my world, humans very often go abandon civilization and join retreats to live on trees and adopt the elven mentality and way of life. I like it and I'd prefer it to stay that way.

I do not like the idea that a dwarf should "think like a dwarf" and automatically have a "dwarven culture" - instead he should behave how he has been raised, by the people he has been raised. It wouldn't make sense that an elf risen in a human civ use wooden weapons or would want to live in a tree.

In worldgen, maybe if a population of meat eater joins a civilization - like hyena men or the like - maybe it should influence the amount of cattle, or add new sizes in the clothes that are produced locally to accomodate the population.  But aside that... no thanks.

Civilizations have a culture, races do not.

Edit: A human in a dwarven civilization do not know how to make bows or two handed swords. In my assessment, that's the point of civilization - to define what you can or cannot build. Also I'm fine with one dwarven civ to not have the ability to build everything as it would make commerce obsolete. And dwarven civs are already OP enough as they are, lol