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[Torak]

If people base thier entire opinion on a game after first impressions, they can fuck off and not play, those people are always the ones you don't want supporting a game.

Look what happened to The Elder Scrolls.

[Lord Licorice]

quote:Originally posted by Torak:
<STRONG>If people base thier entire opinion on a game after first impressions, they can fuck off and not play, those people are always the ones you don't want supporting a game.

Look what happened to The Elder Scrolls.</STRONG>

I don't know about you, but it took me at least two or three attempts to wrap my head around the game.  I tried, couldn't get the hang of it, gave up, got interested again a couple weeks later, played a while, got disinterested halfway through, then finally picked it up and haven't put it down.

Saying that people shouldn't trust first impressions and that they should "fuck off" if they don't grasp the concept right away is simply an ignorant thing to say. If a game is non-intuitive, it's non-intuitive.  Dwarf Fortress is non-intuitive. Toady will eventually fix that. For now, people either need to slough through the controls and cut themselves on the sharp learning curve or have a experienced play hold their hands through the interface until they've got the controls and concepts down.

[Karlito]

Though I think the graphics could be improved to some extent, what really needs to be cleaned up is the interface.  Its confusing enough to most people to understand the difference between zones and designations, let alone having three different keys call up floodgates in three different menus.  Just some general UI improvements would make the game a lot more accessible, I think.

[Torak]

quote:Originally posted by Lord Licorice:
<STRONG>Saying that people shouldn't trust first impressions and that they should "fuck off" if they don't grasp the concept right away is simply an ignorant thing to say. If a game is non-intuitive, it's non-intuitive.  Dwarf Fortress is non-intuitive. Toady will eventually fix that. For now, people either need to slough through the controls and cut themselves on the sharp learning curve or have a experienced play hold their hands through the interface until they've got the controls and concepts down.</STRONG>

Did I say that people who get confused at first then try to actually learn should fuck off? No, im talking about the people that see the ASCII, form an opinion in 2.3 seconds, say "This game sucks", then never play it again, are who should fuck off.

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Torak ]

[helium]

quote:...appeals to older and older, fewer and fewer players every year

In my dimension Toady was invited to plenty of interviews and recieved a bunch of indie rewards last year, DF was even mentioned on Yahoo! That is not the signs of a dying game, that is the signs of a game gaining popularity.
How old is old? The game is obviously aimed at an adult gaming population and as part of that population I assure you, our interests concerning gaming change little over the years so I doubt Toady have to worry about losing "customers".

Mature gamers doesn't need hype loaded presentations or flashy first impressions. Simply hearing about Boatmurdered or the likes attracts plenty of players.

Toady has already provided links and support for user-made graphics, now you want him to select one of many contributers and bundle his/her pack with the default install. You don't see any problems with that?

quote:If this game doesn't get a significant influx of new players from Yahoo's article, then this will have been a wasted opportunity. You just can't buy advertising like that! We're not talking random wizz-kids with twitchy trigger fingers here, we're talking people already interested in this sort of entertainment, many of whom this game, by all right and reason, ought to captivate and delight.

Wasted opportunity? Im not sure how many serious gamers (who would find interest in DF) browses Yahoo's articles but it's not like Toady bribed Yahoo in order to report on his game.

quote:If people base thier entire opinion on a game after first impressions, they can fuck off and not play, those people are always the ones you don't want supporting a game.

Look what happened to The Elder Scrolls.

If you want quick $$$ those are the perfect supporters for your game but if you have any kind of talent and want to create something great I agree wholeheartedly.

quote:I don't know about you, but it took me at least two or three attempts to wrap my head around the game. I tried, couldn't get the hang of it, gave up, got interested again a couple weeks later, played a while, got disinterested halfway through, then finally picked it up and haven't put it down.

Saying that people shouldn't trust first impressions and that they should "fuck off" if they don't grasp the concept right away is simply an ignorant thing to say. If a game is non-intuitive, it's non-intuitive. Dwarf Fortress is non-intuitive. Toady will eventually fix that. For now, people either need to slough through the controls and cut themselves on the sharp learning curve or have a experienced play hold their hands through the interface until they've got the controls and concepts down.

People unable or unwilling to read existing documentation and learn something by themselves should perhaps choose another game?

[Zonhin]

quote:Originally posted by Torak:
<STRONG>

Did I say that people who get confused at first then try to actually learn to fuck off? No, im talking about the people that see the ASCII, form an opinion in 2.3 seconds, and then say "This game sucks" then never play it again, should fuck off.</STRONG>

I was almost one of those people. First impressions are important, whether you like it or not.

[Lord Licorice]

quote:Originally posted by helium:
<STRONG>People unable or unwilling to read existing documentation and learn something by themselves should perhaps choose another game?</STRONG>

Even the most generic and basic first-person shooter has a brief tutorial to teach players the controls.  Dwarf Fortress has so many options when you first begin that it's nigh impossible to pick up without some guidance, and the in-game help is lacking. The wiki is a great tool, and definitely helped me to learn the game, but that's still a third-party outside source.

This is, again, covered by the Presentation Arc, but as it currently stands, total newbies need help to keep from drowning in confusion. It was scary to me when I first started playing, with so many options to choose from to give dwarves starting skills and equipment, and that's just before embarking! DF lets you do so much that it becomes daunting. Newbies may give up in despair before even attempting to sally forth into the world. Unlike generic FPS, there is no other game aside from Dungeon Keeper that will help prepare you for the concepts and mechanics.

quote:Originally posted by Torak:
<STRONG>Did I say that people who get confused at first then try to actually learn should fuck off? No, im talking about the people that see the ASCII, form an opinion in 2.3 seconds, say "This game sucks", then never play it again, are who should fuck off.</STRONG>

It sounds like you're referring to the twitch-gamer Mountain Dew FPS console crowd, and in this regard I agree wholeheartedly.

[Torak]

Fuck it. Im not on to start a flame war over nothing.

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Torak ]

[Idiom]

quote: No, I'm talking about the people that see the ASCII, form an opinion in 2.3 seconds, and then say "This game sucks" then never play it again, should fuck off.

The people without the maturity/patience to really get into something I would like to avoid meeting here. Sometimes I wonder if Toady ignores graphics entirely to turn off those kind of people.
This is probably the best forum for a game I have ever used or seen, people wise.

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Idiom ]

[Lord Licorice]

I'll redact my post as well.

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Lord Licorice ]

[helium]

quote:Even the most generic and basic first-person shooter has a brief tutorial to teach players the controls.

Lies.

quote:Dwarf Fortress has so many options when you first begin that it's nigh impossible to pick up without some guidance, and the in-game help is lacking

I can only speak for myself in this case but atleast I learned the game only by using bundled documentation and trial & error.

quote:The wiki is a great tool, and definitely helped me to learn the game, but that's still a third-party outside source.

What is wrong with third-part contribution?  

quote:Newbies may give up in despair before even attempting to sally forth into the world.

If you are so afraid of failing in a single player game or any game for that matter you need serious help.

quote:Unlike generic FPS, there is no other game aside from Dungeon Keeper that will help prepare you for the concepts and mechanics.

Yes there are, designating mining areas might be rare in games but the workshop system and military handling is available in other strategy games. And why does this even matter, can no creator have an original idea without relying on other games for gameplay help?

[Fenrir]

Please don't start another flame war, helium. You'll break the forum software again!  

[Lord Licorice]

quote:Originally posted by helium:
<STRONG>hurp derp i liek arguan</STRONG>

All of the questions you ask are self-evident, and all of the comments you make are nonsensical, wrong, skirt the issue, or simply attack me. If you're going to take the time to pick apart my post and respond to every single sentence separately, you might as well try to contribute something worthwhile to the conversation.

[helium]

quote:All of the questions you ask are self-evident, and all of the comments you make are nonsensical, wrong, skirt the issue, or simply attack me. If you're going to take the time to pick apart my post and respond to every single sentence separately, you might as well try to contribute something worthwhile to the conversation.

Such as making up quotes?

quote:Please don't start another flame war, helium. You'll break the forum software again!  

[The-Moon]

I don't see a problem with the interface. The interface in DF is much better compared to other ASCII games.

I just started playing a few days ago.... Or maybe a week. I never had a problem with the interface. If someone has a problem understanding the interface right now. There going to have major problems playing the game. The interface is simple and easy to use.

Sure it could be optimized a bit. But i don't see that as being anything important over game play...