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[helium]

quote:Zonhin wrote:<STRONG>
Shut up. Graphics make the game better, ASCII makes it worse. You'd be surprised how much a game looking good can improve it as a whole. Also, theres a difference between looking good and having advanced graphics. Take Knytt for instance. It looks good. It doesn't have advanced graphics, but it looks good. Dwarf Fortress on the other hand, is an ugly motherfucker. Really. It's hideous. It's not an urgent need, but if graphics were improved a little bit after UI, I would be incredibly grateful.</STRONG>

First of all: Your opinion does not match the general population on this board:
The general population prefer stability & speed over flashy graphics
The general population doesn't think DF is "an ugly motherfucker"
The general population would prefer game improvement over graphic improvement

Personally I don't care at all regarding graphics, I've heard whine concerning other ASCII-based games when the symbols are confusing but I've never had any problems. I can learn that a green D means dragon and I can learn that a crappy bitmap means the same, most people can. Graphics means nothing to me when i'm judging a game, nothing. With its current coding Dwarf Fortress will never move beyond the crappy bitmap state and since to me and most other players ASCII is fine why waste Toady's energy on graphics? It's impossible to attract "next-gen" gamers with graphics which NEVER can reach an even acceptable level for them.

[Aeloi]

Here is my tale... When I first started DF, I had just started getting into Rogue likes, thus learning about DF.  When it first started up, I thought... ugh.  The ASCII messed with my eyes, I had to turn off varied ground tiles.  But the reviews and what I read about it kept my interest so I kept plugging along with no real idea what I was doing at first, just following the wiki and such.  Suddenly one day, the ASCII "came alive" for me.  It was no longer a mess of text on the screen, suddenly I saw dwarves going about their business, trade goods piling up, animals roaming about, sometimes in packs.  Trees, snow and rain.  It was life and it was beautiful...  I have browsed many tilesets, but have found them all somehow lacking compare to the ASCII.  It loses the "feel" for me.  It seems somehow even more artificial.  I guess what I'm saying is I prefer a completely abstract representation of what I'm looking at in DF than a stiff inanimate sprite.  Leaves more room for the imagination, and that is better than any graphics to date.

EDIT: But whatever stimulates you're imagination more is important - not everyone has the same tastes.

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Aeloi ]

[Zonhin]

Yeah, I was more arguing against his point that graphical tilesets are a bad thing. I'm kind of backpedaling here, but I realized that what I said was kind of stupid. Anyway, I was more arguing against his idea that better graphics are a bad thing. They aren't. My example was horrible, for sure, but making the game slightly less intimidating can never be a bad thing.

Also, the game is popular compared to most indy games, yeah, but on a larger scale, it isn't quite up to the popularity level needed for a publishing deal. Toady will most likely get a job in the video game industry if he tried to get one, but no publishing deal.

Remember, not everybody is a huge nerd who likes squinting at ASCII, and a wider audience is never a bad thing.

EDIT: Also, remember that I said it wasn't an urgent thing. I'm not asking for this immediately.

EDIT2: The more I think about this, the more I realize it's kind of an unrealistic idea at this point. I keep forgetting that he's doing this in C.

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]

[Lord Licorice]

quote:Originally posted by Zonhin:
<STRONG>Yeah, I was more arguing against his point that graphical tilesets are a bad thing. I'm kind of backpedaling here, but I realized that what I said was kind of stupid. Anyway, I was more arguing against his idea that better graphics are a bad thing. They aren't. My example was horrible, for sure, but making the game slightly less intimidating can never be a bad thing.

Also, the game is popular compared to most indy games, yeah, but on a larger scale, it isn't quite up to the popularity level needed for a publishing deal. Toady will most likely get a job in the video game industry if he tried to get one, but no publishing deal.

Remember, not everybody is a huge nerd who likes squinting at ASCII, and a wider audience is never a bad thing.</STRONG>

Ahh, and now I agree completely on all counts.  

[Zonhin]

FORGET THIS POST PRETEND ITS GONE NOW

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]

[Aeloi]

quote:Originally posted by Zonhin:
<STRONG>EDIT2: The more I think about this, the more I realize it's kind of an unrealistic idea at this point. I keep forgetting that he's doing this in C.
</STRONG>

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

[Zonhin]

quote:Originally posted by Aeloi:
<STRONG>

What the hell does that have to do with anything?</STRONG>

Honestly, I have no idea what I was thinking there. I didn't get much sleep today.

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]

[Aeloi]

quote:Originally posted by Zonhin:
<STRONG>FORGET THIS POST PRETEND ITS GONE NOW

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]</STRONG>

LOL, you can delete a post..  Get some sleep man  

[Red Jackard]

quote:Originally posted by Aeloi:
<STRONG>you can delete a post</STRONG>

You can?

[Zonhin]

Not really.

[Aeloi]

quote:Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>You can?</STRONG>

Doh.. In theory you would be able to under "edit/delete" post.. however there is a note that only forum moderators can delete posts... my bad

[The-Moon]

I was just suggesting that toady simple include some basic graphics with the game so when you download it there already there.

I didn't say nothing about putting graphics before game play, and anyone who thinks graphics should come before game play should not really be here.

Game play should always come before graphics. Thats what makes a Good/Great/Awesome Game. Thats why we have DF. Thats also why theres no good games out on the market today  

[Zonhin]

quote:Originally posted by The-Moon:
<STRONG>Game play should always come before graphics. Thats what makes a Good/Great/Awesome Game. Thats why we have DF. Thats also why theres no good games out on the market today     Game company's like to put graphics before game play, thats never a good thing.
</STRONG>

There are plenty of good games out. Super Mario Galaxy was possibly the best Mario game released. You have Half-Life 2 Ep. 2, Portal, and a lot of other great games. 2007 was an incredibly good year.

[ February 06, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]

[Fedor]

quote:Originally posted by The-Moon:
<STRONG>I was just suggesting that toady simple include some basic graphics with the game so when you download it there already there.</STRONG>

I agree with this.  The default look just doesn't do DF anything like justice; it's crabbed, pixellated, too small for virtually all screens sported by machines capable of running the game, terribly limited in variety, and appeals to older and older, fewer and fewer players every year.  The game is shooting itself in the foot by using it as a default, letting it shape the initial reaction of the potential Bay12 games player/fan/contributor.

Just saying that "this game is a heck of a lot better than it looks at first sight", or saying "but there are loads of user-created add-ons" is insufficient - we're talking first impression here, the decision to stay to learn enough about this game to realize just how cool it is.

I don't care which of the major user-contributed packs gets the nod.  Mike Mayday's work - groovy!  Dystopian or Quantas - either's fine by me!  Hook me up with any of five different square tilesets from the wiki - any of them would look better than the 800x600 default!

[Fedor]

To follow up:

If this game doesn't get a significant influx of new players from Yahoo's article, then this will have been a wasted opportunity.  You just can't buy advertising like that!  We're not talking random wizz-kids with twitchy trigger fingers here, we're talking people already interested in this sort of entertainment, many of whom this game, by all right and reason, ought to captivate and delight.

Bugs?  Toady doesn't let enough of them survive to stop the fun.  Missing features?  Sure, Toady's got a zillion incredible ideas and is working hard on several as we speak, but he's already added enough for new players to share and enjoy right now.  Interface?  Ah, here's the problem.  If this rare opportunity to present Toady's unique work to a broader player base is missed, inadequate interface will be caught holding the murder weapon.  It's the only player-critical thing this game lacks.