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[Sarmatian123]

It's the natural progression through stress.  It comes right after "has been under a great deal of stress" and right before "has been utterly harrowed by the nightmare that is his tragic life."

It seems anyone with either haggard or harrowed just needs to be consigned to the magma.  Nothing fixes them.

Yes, nothing fixes them. It is still surprising it comes so fast after first "great deal of stress". Specially now, to Dwarves, whom neither are depressive nor had any rain encounters recently. This is odd. I did not figured out what causes that particular down-spiral. For now it looks like every year 1-5 Dwarves just has to go crazy.
Some temporarily, some permanently. For no obvious reason.

I do not think anything fixes regular depression either. Not only haggard or harrowed. Even with disabled hauling already on "great deal of stress".
When these Dwarves start loosing time to mental illness, then they are basically done.

This part mechanic is very simple. Some of those major needs from locations, just simply take too long to satisfy.
Positive effects are entirely gone by 2 month. Locations give these issues, as the activities at locations simply take too long time to perform.
All positive effects pass (specially in adventure mode) away too fast.

I also noticed with 13 different types of alcohol now, that none Dwarf ever gets euphoric.
Even Dwarves, who drink alcohol, which they prefer to "consume", get mood "content".
I put my alcohol stockpile in temple to get Dwarves to pray frequently (easier to satisfy then friends&family). I wonder, if this is some issue.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Remember needs are needs and stress is stress, the two aren't directly related even if you'll notice some correlation. Satisfy needs to give a dwarf focus (works faster), don't and he'll be distracted (yellow arrow, slow). A dwarf has many needs and prioritises some over others, so you don't need to satisfy them all, a couple will be enough to keep a dwarf from being distracted. Yellow arrow is fairly easily curable (exceot on the occasions that they really want the things you can't actually give them).

Dwarves aren't very good at seeing to their own needs right now though. Needs more work.

Stress on the other hand builds buggily right now due to stacking negative thoughts on corpses, rain, and being away from family and friends and other bits and pieces. Too much, they get the red arrow (time to banish to a quiet hillocks someplace). Can be cured, at least in the initial stages, but again, balance is all out of whack right now (fixes coming in from time to time during Steam development). Some dwarves are more susceptible to stress than others (will mention in their thoughts).

It's certainly better than it was even with the initial fixes in 47.03. Needs more work though.

[Sarmatian123]

Remember needs are needs and stress is stress, the two aren't directly related even if you'll notice some correlation. Satisfy needs to give a dwarf focus (works faster), don't and he'll be distracted (yellow arrow, slow). A dwarf has many needs and prioritises some over others, so you don't need to satisfy them all, a couple will be enough to keep a dwarf from being distracted. Yellow arrow is fairly easily curable (exceot on the occasions that they really want the things you can't actually give them).

Dwarves aren't very good at seeing to their own needs right now though. Needs more work.

Stress on the other hand builds buggily right now due to stacking negative thoughts on corpses, rain, and being away from family and friends and other bits and pieces. Too much, they get the red arrow (time to banish to a quiet hillocks someplace). Can be cured, at least in the initial stages, but again, balance is all out of whack right now (fixes coming in from time to time during Steam development). Some dwarves are more susceptible to stress than others (will mention in their thoughts).

It's certainly better than it was even with the initial fixes in 47.03. Needs more work though.

The point with fixed needs and resulting better focus is to get stressed Dwarves more time to accomplish these missing needs, which are causing the stress.
Though I can not provide unobtainable food, friends and family and such.

This is why depressed, haggard and harrowed are death sentences. These illnesses delete time from Dwarves.

Now, I have 18 types of alcohol. The best mood Dwarves get from drinking alcohol is still content. None gets euphoric. Maybe I should remove temple from drinks' stockpile?

[Shonai_Dweller]

Missing needs are not causing stress, they're causing distraction. Unless you've some evidence to dispute the research which people have posted previously.

[Sarmatian123]

Missing needs are not causing stress, they're causing distraction. Unless you've some evidence to dispute the research which people have posted previously.

So "friends & family" is just distraction, while the stress is a result of some angry argument or rain annoyance?

Then explain to me, how focused Dwarves with fewer distractions, can overcome the down-spiraling stress from "annoying rain" and "angry argument", at least temporarily, when those with more distractions fall down the stress' well like a heavy stone. Is this also in that research explained, I would like to know.

For now, as I see this stress issue, the issue is that fulfilled needs do not last long enough and the only thing bringing Dwarves from brink of suicide squad under atom smasher is... no hauling and 1 bone bolt per month. Their "distracting" needs can be fixed and not for focus (but maybe also fo focus), because then and only then they might unwind the stress and recover.

Maybe this is something with last few 0.47.02-0.47.04 versions, after Toady made it possible to recover from stress? So you maybe need that focus to recover now in contrary to old research, when there was no recovery?

[Shonai_Dweller]

That's where the somewhat confusing elements of presentation come in. Missing friends and loved ones causes stress (top of the thoughts page). Needing to spend time with friends and loved ones and not doing so causes distraction (bottom of the thoughts page). A dwarf can suffer from both or one and not the other.

As an example of how stress doesn't equal focus, I have a long-term stressed but completely focussed dwarf in my fortress right now actually. Crafting and enjoying friends and family time is keeping him focussed but alas, rain, miasma and fetid ooze is stressing him out.

So, for a start the presentation needs sorting out so people can see the difference (maybe just display needs somewhere else in a chart like the Adventurer version). Then the rain, multiple body parts and other too powerful stressers need to be balanced better against the positives (feeling fondness talking with friends, lusty when watching naked elf dancers, zealous when listening to the priest, etc).

Hard to get right probably. We don't want to go back to the days of, "I endured the decay of my mother's body, but hey, here's a nice table, now I'm fine" either.

(All that's been added in 47.x so far is making dwarves socialize better so they can get happy thoughts and focus from spending time with people, guildhalls so crafting dwarves can all get craft needs dealt with without pointless crafting, preists for stress relief and zealous thoughts, and some modification to the most stress-prone dwarves so they don't freak out quite as quickly. It plays a little better, but there's more fixes coming).

[muldrake]

Hard to get right probably. We don't want to go back to the days of, "I endured the decay of my mother's body, but hey, here's a nice table, now I'm fine" either.

It's somewhat broken game logic that if dwarves are so upset by seeing some finger lying on the floor that they will then ignore orders to pick it up and just dump it somewhere for literally months at a time without inordinate levels of intervention.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Hard to get right probably. We don't want to go back to the days of, "I endured the decay of my mother's body, but hey, here's a nice table, now I'm fine" either.

It's somewhat broken game logic that if dwarves are so upset by seeing some finger lying on the floor that they will then ignore orders to pick it up and just dump it somewhere for literally months at a time without inordinate levels of intervention.

Yes. That's kind of the point of requiring to fix something. That it is broken.

I find a dump order speeds them up a bit. Or switching off all the workshops and then a dump order. But, as you say, should be quicker. Of course, goblins finger stuck in the wall shouldn't be as stressful as it is either.

[muldrake]

I find a dump order speeds them up a bit. Or switching off all the workshops and then a dump order. But, as you say, should be quicker. Of course, goblins finger stuck in the wall shouldn't be as stressful as it is either.

It seems like things like that should eventually flatten out in their effect on a dwarf.  It's just a finger, or whatever.  Maybe they were shocked to see it the first time, but it seems they should eventually get used to it and not be completely freaked out by it every time they walk by it.  That or if it is considered so horrifying by dwarves, they should be eager to dump it and never see it again instead of just ignoring orders to do so and getting increasingly stressed over seeing it repeatedly.

I pick that as an example because I had something like a dozen dwarves continually freaking out about some piece of remains that insignificant for months.

[mko]

I find a dump order speeds them up a bit. Or switching off all the workshops and then a dump order. But, as you say, should be quicker. Of course, goblins finger stuck in the wall shouldn't be as stressful as it is either.

It seems like things like that should eventually flatten out in their effect on a dwarf.  It's just a finger, or whatever.  Maybe they were shocked to see it the first time, but it seems they should eventually get used to it and not be completely freaked out by it every time they walk by it.  That or if it is considered so horrifying by dwarves, they should be eager to dump it and never see it again instead of just ignoring orders to do so and getting increasingly stressed over seeing it repeatedly.

I pick that as an example because I had something like a dozen dwarves continually freaking out about some piece of remains that insignificant for months.

I would be pretty freaked by rotting fingers in my home (even if living as dwarf in DF world). Main unrealistic part is treating hauling labors of such things as totally unimportant.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I find a dump order speeds them up a bit. Or switching off all the workshops and then a dump order. But, as you say, should be quicker. Of course, goblins finger stuck in the wall shouldn't be as stressful as it is either.

It seems like things like that should eventually flatten out in their effect on a dwarf.  It's just a finger, or whatever.  Maybe they were shocked to see it the first time, but it seems they should eventually get used to it and not be completely freaked out by it every time they walk by it.  That or if it is considered so horrifying by dwarves, they should be eager to dump it and never see it again instead of just ignoring orders to do so and getting increasingly stressed over seeing it repeatedly.

I pick that as an example because I had something like a dozen dwarves continually freaking out about some piece of remains that insignificant for months.

I would be pretty freaked by rotting fingers in my home (even if living as dwarf in DF world). Main unrealistic part is treating hauling labors of such things as totally unimportant.

Hmm. Pick fingers out of the wall, or smooth the walls in the mayor's office. Which job shall I choose today...

Not being able to make it higher priority is certainly something that should be changed though, of course.

[mko]

I find a dump order speeds them up a bit. Or switching off all the workshops and then a dump order. But, as you say, should be quicker. Of course, goblins finger stuck in the wall shouldn't be as stressful as it is either.

It seems like things like that should eventually flatten out in their effect on a dwarf.  It's just a finger, or whatever.  Maybe they were shocked to see it the first time, but it seems they should eventually get used to it and not be completely freaked out by it every time they walk by it.  That or if it is considered so horrifying by dwarves, they should be eager to dump it and never see it again instead of just ignoring orders to do so and getting increasingly stressed over seeing it repeatedly.

I pick that as an example because I had something like a dozen dwarves continually freaking out about some piece of remains that insignificant for months.

I would be pretty freaked by rotting fingers in my home (even if living as dwarf in DF world). Main unrealistic part is treating hauling labors of such things as totally unimportant.

Hmm. Pick fingers out of the wall, or smooth the walls in the mayor's office. Which job shall I choose today...

Not being able to make it higher priority is certainly something that should be changed though, of course.

Hm, maybe it is possible already by keeping only part of hauling labors? Smoothing is certainly controlled by a separate toggle.

[muldrake]

I would be pretty freaked by rotting fingers in my home (even if living as dwarf in DF world). Main unrealistic part is treating hauling labors of such things as totally unimportant.

That's sort of my point, that if I found something that horrifying, I wouldn't need to be ordered to get rid of the horrid thing immediately so as never to see it.  Or call the police if I had no idea why it was there.  But if I were ordered to do it, I wouldn't be wasting any time following that order.  But also, if there were some reason I had vastly more important things to do, my initial horror would give way to being merely annoyed seeing that it was still there.

[delphonso]

Aye. I watched in horror as my dwarves collected all the clothes off of 20 dead dwarves before picking up the bodies. Certainly there is some funkiness with priorities.

I had an issue in the last seige cleanup of visible, but unreachable enemies (in a pit full of...now dead rattlesnakes) scaring dwarves and making them drop their hauled corpse. They could still see it and get bad thoughts, but wouldn't carry it far enough to avoid getting spooked. Why couldn't they get used to either seeing the dead body or seeing the trapped goblins?

[Sarmatian123]

I think Dwarves need some time to think over some things (meetings with counseling manager?) to get their moods changed.
Still from my observations, some yelling at manager Dwarves stopped being distressed after a while without any noticeable changes to their personality. Still very depression prone.

On other side 25 banished and 6 put down under atom smasher, were not so lucky with the same cure (no hauling + 1 bolt bone per 1 month).
Focus suppose not have any impact on depression and still, it has an impact on stopping many Dwarves from spiraling down the depression well.