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[Toady One]

Here's a fresh one from a 0.47.03 worldgen params file. Params are for a default "create world now"

stock df_47_03_win (win10)

Adreorid, "The Past Universe"
Crashes in year 182
http://vpaste.net/WuIr1

Would some of you other folks posting seeds mind verifying this? Just paste those worldgen params into world_gen.txt and select it in the create advanced world screen.

Are these things just not consistent from machine to machine, or just not from machine -> Toady's dev environment? The only other machine I have handy to test with is a mac.

This one popped out in a usable place and I think I've figured it out.  Going to keep checking the others to see if there are different causes.

[ZM5]

Off-topic from the crashes, but I notice that intelligent wilderness creatures still aren't capable of worshipping deities.

Isn't that expected?
Intelligent wilderness creatures aren't from civs, you pick them up just as they join a civ so they won't have had time to integrate and become religious (and adopting a religion isn't something you can do in-game yet).

It kind of isnt expected since they worshipped the deities of civs they'd join in 44.12. This also leaves the "pray to deity" need unfulfillable - maybe not an issue for adv mode, but it could be annoying if you want to get your adventurer to join your fort.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Off-topic from the crashes, but I notice that intelligent wilderness creatures still aren't capable of worshipping deities.

Isn't that expected?
Intelligent wilderness creatures aren't from civs, you pick them up just as they join a civ so they won't have had time to integrate and become religious (and adopting a religion isn't something you can do in-game yet).

It kind of isnt expected since they worshipped the deities of civs they'd join in 44.12. This also leaves the "pray to deity" need unfulfillable - maybe not an issue for adv mode, but it could be annoying if you want to get your adventurer to join your fort.

Oh, it's not just intelligent wilderness creatures. I'm not getting religions for any regular civ animal people either. That doesn't seem right. Experiments too, but perhaps their exempt?

Added to that is it intended for religions to absolutely never spread to camps (or towers or dark pits, but I can see priests actively avoiding going to those places)? Meaning these locations having been taken over by human or dwarf civs of course.

Religion can spread to caves though.

--edit

Hmm. So available religion seems to be based on both race and home (different races in the same home have access to different religions, sometimes none). That would imply that it's counting up the number of worshippers of each race in each location and offering up a selection based on that. Which might mean it's just skipping animal people because there aren't enough of them with the same religion in one location.

--Editedit
Found some religious goblins in a dwarf civ (only in one site out of many). So that works.

[clinodev]

A few concerns I'm seeing emerge from reddit:

*   Serious irregularities in choosing migrant professions with large numbers of particular professions, and I've seen this in my games and on Twitch as well.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I wonder if you made an adjustment to migrant professions to highlight the new guilds? It might be excessive, and breaks with the previous fairly reliable expectation that we'd preferentially get migrants from professions we need.

*   Some sort of loyalty cascade or other form of internal fighting seems to have become far more common, reported most commonly for the end of werebeast fights and occasionally whole training squads slaughtering each other. It doesn't sound like the "historical spy identities" problem. I haven't personally experienced this one (probably because I'm slow to do military,) but this bug report with save might be promising.

*   Gosh, there are a lot of deities/sects in the temple lists now!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm seeing multiple reports of 50-80 entries. This may be working as intended, but it's definitely going to increase the burden of temple building in medium to large forts.

*   Okay, I admit I haven't seen anyone comment about this yet, but since you've just touched this new code, I wonder if we could get stone altars as well as metal ones? Leave the wood ones to the elves, of course.

[Edit: Fixed deity list link.]

[Shonai_Dweller]

After a whole lot of scrolling, I have managed to find at least one site in the Adventurer menu which offers a religion for each of my civilized races (16 of them, a lot of which don't have "native religion" at all). I only have human, elf and dwarf sites available for Adventurer embarks, so these are members of other civs which have moved in and adopted the local religion. Many, many sites offer them none, which is fine and expected.

However, I still haven't found one case of religion offered to a "civilized" animal person (regular animal person, not intelligent wilderness creature) . This despite them having higher pops than some of the civilized races in some cases.

So, before I break my fingers generating hundreds of worlds and obsessively scrolling through thousands of site lists, Toady, can "civilized" animal people and experiments adopt religions at all? (On a scale large enough to offer an adventurer)? Thanks!

--edit
Spotted a dwarven hillocks offering religion to the local "Fist of Mafol" population. So experiments can get god. Only animal people remain unsure.

[draeath]

Got a worldgen crash, stock advanced generation, medium region. Linux.

I have a core dump available, though it's not small - 1.5gb uncompressed, though I can host it for you to get at if you need it. Just let me know.

Code: [Select]

Generating world using parameter set MEDIUM REGION
 Seed: WAUMm28ySwKkqwsoI0UI
 History Seed: sGO6oocyiGk0G0Os4IoI
 Name Seed: Cu0sgeWwUm0KoACaoaOU
 Creature Seed: cuKqkUUak8qm0gUSAmAQ


Code: [Select]

[WORLD_GEN]
        [TITLE:MEDIUM REGION]
        [DIM:129:129]
        [EMBARK_POINTS:1504]
        [END_YEAR:1050]
        [BEAST_END_YEAR:200:80]
        [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
        [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
        [ELEVATION:1:400:401:401]
        [RAINFALL:0:100:200:200]
        [TEMPERATURE:25:75:200:200]
        [DRAINAGE:0:100:200:200]
        [VOLCANISM:0:100:200:200]
        [SAVAGERY:0:100:200:200]
        [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
        [RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
        [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
        [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
        [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
        [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
        [POLE:NORTH_AND_OR_SOUTH]
        [MINERAL_SCARCITY:2500]
        [MEGABEAST_CAP:18]
        [SEMIMEGABEAST_CAP:37]
        [TITAN_NUMBER:9]
        [TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:80:0:100000]
        [DEMON_NUMBER:28]
        [NIGHT_TROLL_NUMBER:14]
        [BOGEYMAN_NUMBER:14]
        [NIGHTMARE_NUMBER:14]
        [VAMPIRE_NUMBER:14]
        [WEREBEAST_NUMBER:14]
        [WEREBEAST_ATTACK_TRIGGER:50:5000:50000]
        [SECRET_NUMBER:28]
        [REGIONAL_INTERACTION_NUMBER:28]
        [DISTURBANCE_INTERACTION_NUMBER:28]
        [EVIL_CLOUD_NUMBER:14]
        [EVIL_RAIN_NUMBER:14]
        [GENERATE_DIVINE_MATERIALS:1]
        [ALLOW_DIVINATION:1]
        [ALLOW_DEMONIC_EXPERIMENTS:1]
        [ALLOW_NECROMANCER_EXPERIMENTS:1]
        [ALLOW_NECROMANCER_LIEUTENANTS:1]
        [ALLOW_NECROMANCER_GHOULS:1]
        [ALLOW_NECROMANCER_SUMMONS:1]
        [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:25:251:503]
        [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:25:251:503]
        [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:12]
        [PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:1]
        [COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
        [VOLCANO_MIN:3]
        [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:260:1:1]
        [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:260:1:1]
        [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:1040:3:3]
        [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:2080:2:2]
        [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:2080:1:1]
        [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
        [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
        [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:2080:3:3]
        [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:2080:3:3]
        [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:250]
        [RIVER_MINS:100:100]
        [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
        [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
        [SUBREGION_MAX:2750]
        [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:3]
        [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:0]
        [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
        [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
        [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:100]
        [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:0]
        [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:100]
        [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
        [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
        [LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:15]
        [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:5]
        [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
        [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
        [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
        [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
        [LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
        [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
        [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:25]
        [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:25]
        [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:50]
        [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
        [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
        [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:40]
        [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:15000]
        [SITE_CAP:1040]
        [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
        [ELEVATION_RANGES:2080:4160:2080]
        [RAIN_RANGES:2080:4160:2080]
        [DRAINAGE_RANGES:2080:4160:2080]
        [SAVAGERY_RANGES:2080:4160:2080]
        [VOLCANISM_RANGES:2080:4160:2080


[IndigoFenix]

I've found that creating a copy of the generated necromancy secrets (with changed names), but designed to raise a modded creature with an experiment interaction, does not raise the modded creature, but does allow them to raise an unrelated generated creature.

While this has little direct impact on an unmodded game (since who really cares which kind of ghoul is paired with which necromancer?) creatures using interactions they don't have in worldgen seems like a pretty nasty bug in logic somewhere and might be worth looking into.

[Shonai_Dweller]

A few concerns I'm seeing emerge from reddit:

*   Serious irregularities in choosing migrant professions with large numbers of particular professions, and I've seen this in my games and on Twitch as well.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I wonder if you made an adjustment to migrant professions to highlight the new guilds? It might be excessive, and breaks with the previous fairly reliable expectation that we'd preferentially get migrants from professions we need.

Not seeing this at all. I don't play with Therapist or Dfhack automation and have an aversion to spending too much time micromanaging, so I notice when I'm not getting a useful influx of migrants 

Nothing seems to have changed in the several fortresses I've played in 47.x except for additional weapon skills in migrants (perhaps due to mercenary experience, etc).

How many playthroughs is this observation based on? I'd say it's rng. Perhaps combined with the way more migrants seem to be historical figures these days and something in that particular civ leaning towards a need for farming skills.

[Nilsolm]

A few concerns I'm seeing emerge from reddit:

*   Serious irregularities in choosing migrant professions with large numbers of particular professions, and I've seen this in my games and on Twitch as well.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I wonder if you made an adjustment to migrant professions to highlight the new guilds? It might be excessive, and breaks with the previous fairly reliable expectation that we'd preferentially get migrants from professions we need.

Not seeing this at all. I don't play with Therapist or Dfhack automation and have an aversion to spending too much time micromanaging, so I notice when I'm not getting a useful influx of migrants 

Nothing seems to have changed in the several fortresses I've played in 47.x except for additional weapon skills in migrants (perhaps due to mercenary experience, etc).

How many playthroughs is this observation based on? I'd say it's rng. Perhaps combined with the way more migrants seem to be historical figures these days and something in that particular civ leaning towards a need for farming skills.

Yes, I haven't noticed any changes here either. There always seem to be one or two dominant professions among migrants depending on the civ and this was the case in 44.xx too from what I remember. The only oddity I'm seeing is that there appear to be a lot more migrants with absolutely no preexisting relationships and I don't remember seeing those a lot, or at all, in previous versions. Not sure what is up with that.

Civil wars really are more problematic though, compared to 44.xx. It seems to happen a lot after attacking visitors who try to make off with artefacts, like that linked bug report says. It's a bit of a headache to deal with them because of that.

[FantasticDorf]

Yes, I haven't noticed any changes here either. There always seem to be one or two dominant professions among migrants depending on the civ and this was the case in 44.xx too from what I remember. The only oddity I'm seeing is that there appear to be a lot more migrants with absolutely no preexisting relationships and I don't remember seeing those a lot, or at all, in previous versions. Not sure what is up with that.

I dont know about you but i think its the opposite, a lot of unfiltered positions from w.g are coming to the fortress mainly including ex-adventurers meaning that they're not sitting in the civilization population or visitor pool doing nothing. I have a broad sheet for these

• Literates : Seem to be incurred by ex library scholars and religion-dedicated book spam, dwarves will arrive with direct experience of reading and writing which are not teachable skills without training a scribe to write literature over and over, a common one is chemistry, but i've had peasants arrive with logician & critical thinking even if possessing nothing else.

• Guild or Trade-Master : Typically have past apprentices & a high level of skill in a subject, possibly literate or not made out of a civ with a lot of peace-time, these could technically appear in 44.xx often crediting migrants arriving with already legendary skills. Im unsure what exactly w.g guild halls do to them

• War Veterans - Skilled weapon fighters, these guys could always appear if the civ was undergoing a lot of war, but they aren't as scarred as goblins since dwarves suffer less mass-losses in alliance conflicts which mobilized them, can have war-buddy relations, always capable of coming on 44.xx but rare due to dwarven inactivity in wars

• Hunters : Have a lot of tracking skill, climbing, usually they hunt a lot of animals in region area before they even arrive on (k)ills and also have weapon experience. Does not directly relate to ambushing hunters, but moreso to monster hunters

• Peddlers : Very socially adept dwarves who nearly all are traders and ideal candidates for brokers and mayors, sometimes coming with book-keeper & organiser experience (these w.g profession can be seen on the c screen making them easy to spot amongst your nobles)

• Drunk : Unknown, sometimes dwarves on the civilization noble list for a civ have this, i would guess they are totally unskilled

Edit*- I think its more likely that spies have took their fake skillsets back to the fortress with them, rather than freeing up the pool of adventuerers. I personally think that the nessecity to wipe the spy's identity clean might have also have wiped away their family as per the sites past association or it was a little overzealous for whether they were a spy in their home nation.

[therahedwig]

Just so you know, spies don't have fake skillsets, the identity system doesn't cover faking skills, inventory and attributes.

I am pretty sure it's caused by the guilds leading to histfigs being more likely to be grown as x-profession as part of a guild's history, and then them moving to your fort. Might be worth it to check what kind of craft guilds are common in a given civ...?

[TomiTapio]

Uploaded a possible bugged save:
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14830
fight undead siege without building walls, had 1 adult remaining, pressed yield to siege, it crashed to desktop (win64). May relate to undead being underwater.

[FantasticDorf]

Uploaded a possible bugged save:
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14830
fight undead siege without building walls, had 1 adult remaining, pressed yield to siege, it crashed to desktop (win64). May relate to undead being underwater.

Just worked perfectly for me in windowed mode if that's relevant, i succumbed the fortress immediately so perhaps nothing much to do with the transition of power unless like you said, the units need to be standing in non-inaccessible places.

All the remaining dwarves are mentioned to have starved to death rather than been slaughtered in the fortress's entry afterwards of being routed.

[Toady One]

Fixed two world gen crashes from earlier in the thread -- Ryan's and charming.snark's ended up being the same cause, and ZM5's were the same one in the three I checked.

Re: linux w.g. crash, dunno how to use a core dump, and I can't do much with Linux directly currently in any case (cannot run the seed, for example), and it'd be difficult to dive into a community effort to construct a more usable virtual computer with the deadlines approaching.  Hopefully the upcoming two w.g. crash fixes cover it, though of course that's optimistic.

A few concerns I'm seeing emerge from reddit:

*   Serious irregularities in choosing migrant professions with large numbers of particular professions, and I've seen this in my games and on Twitch as well.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I wonder if you made an adjustment to migrant professions to highlight the new guilds? It might be excessive, and breaks with the previous fairly reliable expectation that we'd preferentially get migrants from professions we need.

*   Some sort of loyalty cascade or other form of internal fighting seems to have become far more common, reported most commonly for the end of werebeast fights and occasionally whole training squads slaughtering each other. It doesn't sound like the "historical spy identities" problem. I haven't personally experienced this one (probably because I'm slow to do military,) but this bug report with save might be promising.

*   Gosh, there are a lot of deities/sects in the temple lists now!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm seeing multiple reports of 50-80 entries. This may be working as intended, but it's definitely going to increase the burden of temple building in medium to large forts.

*   Okay, I admit I haven't seen anyone comment about this yet, but since you've just touched this new code, I wonder if we could get stone altars as well as metal ones? Leave the wood ones to the elves, of course.

Not sure about the migrants.  The profession attraction code still has desired professions up top, so it'd have to be really out of whack (ie, no available migrants of the right type), which is probably is.  Even without those, it should be creating non-historical migrants to meet need before it pulls random historical figures.  Maybe those are the increased disconnected people mentioned in the thread.

Yeah, I know there's at least one (and probably more) cascade issue that wasn't a spy.  Hopefully I can figure it out.

I should also resolve the god issue this time.  It's not intended - an unfortunate consequence of it inefficiently fishing around for death gods in mortal civs.

I'll check the stone altars as well.  I agree it's the most sensible material.

Toady, can "civilized" animal people and experiments adopt religions at all? (On a scale large enough to offer an adventurer)?

Presumably if there's a population that's moved to a city, they should just pick up religions slowly like other groups do, in the periodic shrine/culture update.  I don't think they have special rules.  So yeah, if that's not happening, and the population isn't newly moved, it should be checked out.

I've found that creating a copy of the generated necromancy secrets (with changed names), but designed to raise a modded creature with an experiment interaction, does not raise the modded creature, but does allow them to raise an unrelated generated creature.

Hmm, no immediate idea.  It's pulling the e.g. ghoul effect from their usable interaction profile and not a global list, so it should come from the secrets they've learned (or from their metaphysical profile if they have spheres -- in which case it will be random.)  Will have to check out the specific setup when it gets on the tracker.

[TomiTapio]

Uploaded a possible bugged save:http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14830
fight undead siege without building walls, had 1 adult remaining, pressed yield to siege, it crashed to desktop (win64). May relate to undead being underwater.

Just had a crash-on-retire-fort, about 2 days elapsed on brand new site (no water on surface or caves, so Retire). Something funny going on with OldGenesis raws and abandoning a player fort; has crashed twice.