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[Vector]

I found this Twitter thread useful to understanding what "endemic" means.

[Pwnzerfaust]

Masks work if you're using high-filtering ones like N95s or whatever, but barely anyone does, so unless you're willing to go ahead and pay the bill for buying everyone an ongoing supply of N95s, then no, in effect they do not work. The basic cloth masks and disposable surgical masks have no statistically significant benefit.

[Vector]

Ah. I understand your point, then.

I upgraded to N95s etc. with the Omicron wave (I was rationing them for an event like this before). At the university, most students use high quality masks.

I would be more than happy to have my $20k of yearly income taxed in order to get everyone at least one good mask per week

[Robot Parade Leader]

Mask issues have always been about misinformation and the unwillingness to manufacture them.

We did/do need N95s. The cloth masks were better than nothing. Surgeons wear surgical masks for a reason; you don't want them not wearing them during surgery.

Masks work if you're using high-filtering ones like N95s or whatever, but barely anyone does, so unless you're willing to go ahead and pay the bill for buying everyone an ongoing supply of N95s, then no, in effect they do not work. The basic cloth masks and disposable surgical masks have no statistically significant benefit.

Yes, the sensible would very much like everyone to have an ongoing supply of N95s. The corporate overlords don't want to manufacture the amount we all need, despite what could have easily been an overwhelming demand to justify the supply. Even if government guaranteed payment. This is about abuse of power with misinformation even at a $loss
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/white-house-says-it-will-distribute-400-million-free-n95-n1287672

"The Biden administration will make 400 million N95 masks available for free at thousands of locations across the country, a White House official said Wednesday, as health experts stress the importance of high-quality face coverings to protect against the omicron variant of the coronavirus." ~ Is what a lot of people would like to do if people would get out of the way and play ball. They won't.

[hector13]

JoshuaFH's interpretation is pretty insightful and accurate. I hold pretty strongly to the philosophy espoused by Benjamin Franklin when he said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Unfortunately that quote does not mean what you think it means.

WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.

I suspect you’ll be looking for another philosophy to live by, or will you just give up on trying to make your selfishness appear palatable to others?

[Pwnzerfaust]

Nope. Keeping my philosophy. I believe in individual liberty. Liberty is messy, and it has tradeoffs, and sometimes that means you can't guarantee safety. But I'm happy with my choices

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWhbUUE4ko

[nenjin]

We always appreciate armchair philosophical positions.

At least your Youtube bait was catchy though.

[Starver]

The basic cloth masks and disposable surgical masks have no statistically significant benefit.

A factless assertion. Easily shown to be incorrect. Not that you're bothered. Enjoy your life, hope things go well with you.

Spoiler: Ignore this. (click to show/hide)

First link that I come across: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html - obviously a bit dated (post-Delta, pre-Omicron) but not to any disadvantage of its accuracy.

Relevent snippet.

Multi-layer cloth masks block release of exhaled respiratory particles into the environment, along with any microorganisms associated with these particles. Cloth masks not only effectively block most large droplets (i.e., 20-30 microns and larger), but they can also block the exhalation of fine droplets and particles (also often referred to as aerosols) smaller than 10 microns which increase in number with the volume of speech and specific types of phonation. Multi-layer cloth masks can both block 50-70% of these fine droplets and particles and limit the forward spread of those that are not captured. Upwards of 80% blockage has been achieved in human experiments, with cloth masks in some studies performing on par with surgical masks as barriers for source control. In one study, conducted prior to widespread circulation of the Delta variant, masks worked equally well for blocking aerosolized particles containing both “wild-type” virus and the Alpha variant (a more infectious variant).

Not as good as full respirators, though those may be optimised for wearer protection (see next section on for Filtration for Wearer Protection), and perhaps a practiced fitting of a surgical mask (also more meant to prevent outwards transmission) is better too, but still much better than nothing.

But if you want to be selfishly in pursuit of personal liberty at the expense of others' interests, I can't stop you. Enjoy your freedom, play your part in any future flare-ups.

[Pwnzerfaust]

We always appreciate armchair philosophical positions.

At least your Youtube bait was catchy though.

Thanks! Glad to be appreciated!

The basic cloth masks and disposable surgical masks have no statistically significant benefit.

A factless assertion. Easily shown to be incorrect. Not that you're bothered. Enjoy your life, hope things go well with you.

Spoiler: Ignore this. (click to show/hide)

First link that I come across: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html - obviously a bit dated (post-Delta, pre-Omicron) but not to any disadvantage of its accuracy.

Relevent snippet.

Multi-layer cloth masks block release of exhaled respiratory particles into the environment, along with any microorganisms associated with these particles. Cloth masks not only effectively block most large droplets (i.e., 20-30 microns and larger), but they can also block the exhalation of fine droplets and particles (also often referred to as aerosols) smaller than 10 microns which increase in number with the volume of speech and specific types of phonation. Multi-layer cloth masks can both block 50-70% of these fine droplets and particles and limit the forward spread of those that are not captured. Upwards of 80% blockage has been achieved in human experiments, with cloth masks in some studies performing on par with surgical masks as barriers for source control. In one study, conducted prior to widespread circulation of the Delta variant, masks worked equally well for blocking aerosolized particles containing both “wild-type” virus and the Alpha variant (a more infectious variant).

Not as good as full respirators, though those may be optimised for wearer protection (see next section on for Filtration for Wearer Protection), and perhaps a practiced fitting of a surgical mask (also more meant to prevent outwards transmission) is better too, but still much better than nothing.

But if you want to be selfishly in pursuit of personal liberty at the expense of others' interests, I can't stop you. Enjoy your freedom, play your part in any future flare-ups.

Thanks for your support. I'm glad you understand that people make choices and trade-offs and life, and are willing to support my choices, as I support yours

[heydude6]

Spoiler: Ignore this. (click to show/hide)

First link that I come across: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html - obviously a bit dated (post-Delta, pre-Omicron) but not to any disadvantage of its accuracy.

Relevent snippet.

Multi-layer cloth masks block release of exhaled respiratory particles into the environment, along with any microorganisms associated with these particles. Cloth masks not only effectively block most large droplets (i.e., 20-30 microns and larger), but they can also block the exhalation of fine droplets and particles (also often referred to as aerosols) smaller than 10 microns which increase in number with the volume of speech and specific types of phonation. Multi-layer cloth masks can both block 50-70% of these fine droplets and particles and limit the forward spread of those that are not captured. Upwards of 80% blockage has been achieved in human experiments, with cloth masks in some studies performing on par with surgical masks as barriers for source control. In one study, conducted prior to widespread circulation of the Delta variant, masks worked equally well for blocking aerosolized particles containing both “wild-type” virus and the Alpha variant (a more infectious variant).

Not as good as full respirators, though those may be optimised for wearer protection (see next section on for Filtration for Wearer Protection), and perhaps a practiced fitting of a surgical mask (also more meant to prevent outwards transmission) is better too, but still much better than nothing.

But if you want to be selfishly in pursuit of personal liberty at the expense of others' interests, I can't stop you. Enjoy your freedom, play your part in any future flare-ups.

Colour me surprised. Though it is CDC, it's provided an overwhelming amount of studies to back up its claims, when I previously heard that none existed. The first one I looked at checked out (study number 3, which states that cloth masks blocked 59% of fine aerosol particles in comparison with the mighty n95's 99%), so that's enough to make my gut interpret it as trustworthy (Boo! How dare you not take the time to verify all 90 citations!).

Thanks for sharing this. It does make me wonder why my surgeon friend so zealously believes masks are useless against Covid though.

[delphonso]

Your surgeon friend has made their decision and are looking for excuses to support it and sound evidence based. Anti-vaxxers and pro-covid folks started pulling this 'masks don't work' line a couple months ago (I believe it was Bumber in this thread that I saw it first). It is frankly idiotic, intentionally ignoring how viruses spread to justify the behavior they've pushed for since day 1.

[nenjin]

Thanks for your support. I'm glad you understand that people make choices and trade-offs and life, and are willing to support my choices, as I support yours

If you supported our choices you wouldn't be living in a Libertarian delusion. It's all self-balancing though. Everything comes paid eventually. Just look at the people you agree with and how fast they're leaving the gene pool.

[Pwnzerfaust]

Thanks for your support. I'm glad you understand that people make choices and trade-offs and life, and are willing to support my choices, as I support yours

If you supported our choices you wouldn't be living in a Libertarian delusion. It's all self-balancing though. Everything comes paid eventually. Just look at the people you agree with and how fast they're leaving the gene pool.

Actually, the people who agree with me are all vaccinated, and so they're not exactly in any rush to leave the gene pool. No Herman Cain awards here

Even Fauci agrees we're out of the woods!

[Robot Parade Leader]

Thanks for your support. I'm glad you understand that people make choices and trade-offs and life, and are willing to support my choices, as I support yours

If you supported our choices you wouldn't be living in a Libertarian delusion. It's all self-balancing though. Everything comes paid eventually. Just look at the people you agree with and how fast they're leaving the gene pool.

Actually, the people who agree with me are all vaccinated, and so they're not exactly in any rush to leave the gene pool. No Herman Cain awards here

Even Fauci agrees we're out of the woods!

This is why there's no point in arguing in a "post truth" society. Translation: lies, misinformation, and cherry picking.

Even this less than great, out of context article just does not say, "it's over." But there are people who will only see what they want to see and just will never ever under any circumstances deal with anything else. "Beginning to end" (after 2 years) is still not "it's over." Seems lots of people are engaging in smug wishful thinking and delusion. People want it to be over and they don't care how or at what cost ... to other people (notably not them personally). It's somehow a "trade off" as long as the person making the decision isn't the one forced to pay for it.... The real world is real, and people can't collectively decide a pandemic is over when they want it over, because humans don't have that ability. Otherwise, this would've been over ages ago. Although several will get physically violent with you if you point that out these days.... I'm pretty sure if Facci said "it's over," every single major news outlet would have it front page or heavily featured. He didn't.

We're still losing 1,000s of people to this.... Soon it's gonna hit 1,000,000 in the US. Couple months? There could be another variant (like delta or omicron). We don't know.

Bottom line: A lot of people only care about their individual comfort and nothing else. This is why the West is failing.
I once heard someone say "humans are monsters that can't stand to be called monsters." I didn't get how anyone could say that at the time. I don't know if I'm ready to buy that yet, but I'm starting to get they went through a lot to say that.

[ChairmanPoo]

There could be another variant but you dont need one. Omicron can infect you while vaccinated and it can re-infect you every few weeks. Even disregarding deaths and long covid, no society can run with a huge percentage of the population getting disabled by covid over and over.

I predict another U turn by western goverments in a few weeks, once the insanity of all this becomes clear and they bring back masks and social distancing.