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Author Topic: Untamed Virus Containment Thread:COVID-19: Lurking Omni-Flu Edition  (Read 496916 times)

kaijyuu

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3585 on: July 10, 2020, 12:16:08 pm »

I've had a few online friends get sick. Basically stopped playing games with us for 3 weeks while being bedridden.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

wierd

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3586 on: July 10, 2020, 04:50:32 pm »

Test kits arrived. Just got my brain probed. We'll find out sometime soon.

Hurrah for young kid employees not practicing hard lockdowns on socializing.

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Max™

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3587 on: July 10, 2020, 08:11:52 pm »

Well shit, we hit 71k cases yesterday, after two days of 61k I figured they'd try on 65k or something for size... this, this is bad.
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hector13

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3588 on: July 10, 2020, 09:15:03 pm »

In other, less hectic news, Wisconsin broke their daily record for positive cases yesterday with something like 750 positives, and then broke it again today with 850.

I am happy that I have a week off, sad that I have another week to work before that...

Was listening to the radio this morning, not really paying attention, but they were chatting about covid with some dude who was testing cases or analyzing data or something. Some dude calls in and is all “the government tyranny making us wear masks need stop! Anyone who gives up even the smallest liberty for security deserves neither!” and then the guest was like “shut up fool, your freedom ends when it infringes on someone else’s, bitch!” but it came out as “well, as an example, if you have a restaurant,  you have the freedom to make some food and leave it sit for a week before serving it to someone, but you’ll get punished for doing it, rightly so, and it should be the same for not taking precautions against transmitting covid.”

Like, is American freedom just a special kind of freedom in which people don’t think you should be able to get punished for being a complete tit, or is this guy special?
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3589 on: July 10, 2020, 09:16:38 pm »

Many years ago I read a short story about a pandemic which I assumed to be fiction, later found out was set during the 1918 pandemic.

Never thought I'd actually see something like this happening. Couldn't believe it. Not in the western world. Holy fuck.

Bonus points for people making it worse by refusing to follow basic common sense guidelines. Remember when we shook our heads when people during the Ebola pandemic insisted in holding traditional funerals for the highly infectious dead? We have mass facemask refusal. We have people holding funerals, and baptisms, and weddings. We have folks doing  deliberate covid parties FFS. All the things we saw happening during other disasters elsewhere, which we thought could never happening here, *are* happening, with a vengeance.

I'm quite shocked by all this.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3590 on: July 10, 2020, 09:31:15 pm »

COVID parties sound very stupid. Why would anyone do something like that?
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3591 on: July 10, 2020, 09:33:00 pm »

Dunno, don't ask me, ask *them*. In their heads it probably made sense in some twisted manner.

Maybe they thought they'd "prove" covid is not important by risking themselves pointlessly.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3592 on: July 10, 2020, 09:38:13 pm »

Dunno, don't ask me, ask *them*. In their heads it probably made sense in some twisted manner.

Maybe they thought they'd "prove" covid is not important by risking themselves pointlessly.
Each day I learn new ways humans do things that make no sense...I wish people are sensible and not doing this kind of stuff. People fear AI, meanwhile, deliberately spreading a lethal virus while thinking it’s not a big deal. It is clear to me that the current human leaders aren’t doing their jobs, protecting their citizens from crises. I think an AI programmed to stop the spread of pandemics would to a much better job than the leaders we currently have. Why are there stupid people? Did they not pay attention in biology when learning how diseases spread?
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Starver

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3593 on: July 10, 2020, 10:38:54 pm »

Chickenpox Parties have long been a thing[1], because getting young children catching that pox ought to be relatively harmless to them and prevents them first catching it when adults, at which point it can be far worse for reasons I couldn't tell you without looking it up.

I imagine that with this similar thing of the young (adults) generally getting away with few or no problems (that we know!) and most bad cases and deaths being in the upper-brackets of age, the logic (such as it is) is to try a similar trick.

Counter-arguments mostly arise from this being a novel outbreak, not one whose old-wife's-tale traditionalist non-medical approach to handling it has been put through the crucible of continuous checking against reality and increasing medical knowledge over decades and decades (perhaps centuries, possibly millenia) and has generally been found to be not a hidden dragon of a problem. If it is an outdated approach, with childhood vaccines now being an (at least) equivalently proven-beneficial thing to hold off the threat (for those who don't get innoculated against vaccines by the antivax misinformation), it is still a good second option.

With Covid, we just don't know, though. Young adults (and even young children) have been struck down by this - and not only those who are otherwise 'unnaturally' living with comorbid conditions known to interact badly. It's an age-band that the traditionalist would not suggest is safe for c.pox, as if that's any guide. The "catch it once, then never again" thing is unproven. The (more elderly) adults that would now come into contact with such party-goers have not themselves been party-innoculated when they were young[3] so cannot blithely supervise procedings or their aftermath, or even be around as the fizzling-out is still fizzling. Many more hidden variables remain so hidden.

And, moreover, the purpose is not an altruistic act by the elders-and-betters, working with principles passed onto them by their E&Bs, but is a self-guided possible-fantasy of freedom by the "I'm alright, Jack" generation that is deciding there's no real risk for itself (without following up the known repercussions, never mind the unknown ones) so let's PAAAAAARRRRRTÉ....


I'm not even sure there's any direct lineage to pox-parties, though it probably forms a sort of racial memory (an inkling, at least, rolled out as an explanation if challenged)used to 'justify' the naked hedonism at the core of the pursuit of such transient 'happiness'.


[1] Or were? I know of them mostly be reputation, TBH, as something that "has long been a thing" for the generation before me. Though I can't recall a specific party or two for me, immediately prior/post my own catching it[2], so was likely just an organic transmission process from what might these days have been called 'play dates'.

[2] If I bare my chest, and part the hairs, I can still see the most prominent 'scar' left over from the time, and remember the camomile lotion being rubbed into me by my mother. I was a mid-to-upper-single-digit age, for sure.

[3] Individuals who was never exposed to c.pox seem to be rare individuals, noted as needing to take care during "party season", in particular. If it's not actually a plot point in an Agatha Christie book, it's one in a AC-era book (by publication or just setting) along the same lines that I half remember, but results in an unpoxed person (for whatever reason they were) being vulnerable and knowing it.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3594 on: July 10, 2020, 10:47:10 pm »

Chickenpox parties are today mostly the province of anti-vaxxers, since we now have a chickenpox vaccine. This is rather advantageous since, in addition to avoiding the scars and pain of even childhood chickenpox, the virus will persist for life deep inside your central nervous system where the immune system cannot remove it. Should you then become immunocompromised, it will reemerge in the form it usually takes in adults - shingles, which is painful and potentially life-threatening.

Since covid appears to be causing blood clots even in mild cases and is regardless the most dangerous pandemic since at least the H1N1 flu (and counting!), intentionally exposing someone to covid is, oh, say...attempted murder?
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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scriver

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3595 on: July 11, 2020, 06:35:41 am »

Dunno, don't ask me, ask *them*. In their heads it probably made sense in some twisted manner.

Maybe they thought they'd "prove" covid is not important by risking themselves pointlessly.
Each day I learn new ways humans do things that make no sense...I wish people are sensible and not doing this kind of stuff.

Humans never do things that make no sense. They only do things that make no sense to you (you being anyone)

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People fear AI, meanwhile, deliberately spreading a lethal virus while thinking it’s not a big deal. It is clear to me that the current human leaders aren’t doing their jobs, protecting their citizens from crises. I think an AI programmed to stop the spread of pandemics would to a much better job than the leaders we currently have.

There's absolutely no reason to assume as such. I would go as far as saying assuming as such makes no sense
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Starver

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3596 on: July 11, 2020, 06:51:32 am »

I had a look after my prior post, and 1984 was when the c.pox vaccine was rolled out (and seemingly not ubiquetously for the UK, but that was well after my childhood episode, anyway). I remember two 'shots' given to me whilst in secondary school but not what they were for (a 'six needle' head for one, and a rather more vicious slicey-type for the other that I still see the scar for, near my shoulder, if that helps) and doubtless received earlier infancy-era jabs from beyond the reliable dawn of my memory.

I think I got a Tetanus 'booster' a number of years ago on what was probably my most recent visit to A&E (as subject of the visit, that is), just to be sure after I went in with a bit of a gashy-wound to the shin that I'd been unable to deal with myself. The fact that this was a booster (and suggested as being timely from my medical records) highly suggests that I'd had at least one prior shot for it (probably more, as I think it was sufficient time since my prior 'boost', whatever occasion that might have been for).

((My father was actually 'allergic' to anti-Tetanus. Maybe an older concoction, but there was some sort of reaction he had that meant they told him to just take more care when gardening[2] to avoid the necessity in future. But there was and remains no reason to believe I am so inclined, and it might have been a co-factor in the vaccine mix that had now long since been phased out.))


Not yet[1] having parented a child, I'm just not up on more contemporary vaccination schedules and rostas, from the viewpoint of 'interested observer' and schedule-follower.


I think an AI programmed to stop the spread of pandemics would to a much better job than the leaders we currently have.
There's absolutely no reason to assume as such. I would go as far as saying assuming as such makes no sense
As long as we get more paperclips, as promised, I'm sure there's no issue letting Skynet take over!

[1] insert obligatory "...that I know of!" innuendo somewhere around here, for old times' sake...

[2] Jokes on them. He didn't tend the garden, mum did...
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McTraveller

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3597 on: July 11, 2020, 07:11:01 am »

I would say that there are definitely cultural influences. The bigger issue for the US culture I think is that the leadership didn't say "hey population, let's work together to help stop this. You can participate and make a difference!"  The leadership instead was either saying "hey population, we're mandating you do this and will fine you or whatever if you don't do it." or "eh this doesn't matter, keep doing whatever you want." Social media doesn't help - it never says "help out! do your part!"; it mostly says "you are an idiot if you don't do this" or "you are a sheeple if you do".  See the difference?

Part is also that humans are really bad at risk estimation. I work with risk every day - not health risk, but probability of equipment failure kind of risk.  There whole thing, though, is predicated on the highly subjective concept of "acceptable risk."  This starts falling into cultural aspects too.  A simple example is: people who ride motorcycles willingly accept a higher level of risk than people who buy a Volvo because the Volvo brand is the "safety" brand for cars.

So some of the argument with this pandemic is that some people are telling other people what levels of risk they should be tolerating. This is the "personal affront" part.  The US in general does not have a value system that espouses personal sacrifice to benefit the public good.  So why would you expect people to suddenly adopt this value when they haven't had it for the entire life?

Add to that the fact that virus impact is highly based on probability and changes dramatically between geographic regions, and it's understandable why attitudes are the way they are, even if you don't agree with them.  Regardless of that, forcing people to adopt your values is a questionable population, and "for the greater good" is a dangerous rationale for use of that force, because how can you challenge what "the greater good" is?
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Reelya

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3598 on: July 11, 2020, 08:43:20 am »

That doesn't really fit with how things went overseas. The heavy-handedness isn't the difference. Here, you can't go out for a drink right now, all pubs are closed. The rules are extremely strict. The government coming down on rules-breakers isn't what's unpopular. They're running it as if there's a war on, so the rules aren't optional, but people go along with it because that's the thing you do now.

It's not the mandating that people follow the rules that's the problem, it's that in America there's no consistency. Here we have the federal and state governments saying follow the rules, rules breakers are assholes and will be punished. Which is the heavy-handed stuff but it's at least consistent, and the leaders involved have actually become pretty popular. The "let's work together" thing in a crisis is in fact that there are authorities who set the rules and people know what the rules are so they don't panic. For example, if there was a volcano erupting the last thing you want is the leaders going "gee if we all work together we can work this out" what people actually want is "get in this line, grab this thing, go over there, someone is in control of the situation".

If Trump had been 100% "these are the rules now obey or else" from the start and enforced heavy-handed rules then sure people would have grumbled, but people would have gone along with it and he'd have a popularity rating of about 70% right now. If Trump had more of a brain he would have turned the coronavirus into a surefire way to win an unwinnable election.

So you got three possible responses from leadership. (1) is the touchy-feely consultative type of leadership (will just appear as weakness / indecision / worthless in this situation), (2) is abrogation of responsibility (what Trump is doing) and (3) is the strong man / in control / commander type. (3) is the optimal response in a situation like this.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 08:58:04 am by Reelya »
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Iduno

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Re: Untamed Virus Containment Thread: COVID-19: Ride the Wave, Dude! Edition
« Reply #3599 on: July 11, 2020, 09:43:01 am »

Dunno, don't ask me, ask *them*. In their heads it probably made sense in some twisted manner.

Maybe they thought they'd "prove" covid is not important by risking themselves pointlessly.
Each day I learn new ways humans do things that make no sense...I wish people are sensible and not doing this kind of stuff. People fear AI, meanwhile, deliberately spreading a lethal virus while thinking it’s not a big deal. It is clear to me that the current human leaders aren’t doing their jobs, protecting their citizens from crises. I think an AI programmed to stop the spread of pandemics would to a much better job than the leaders we currently have. Why are there stupid people? Did they not pay attention in biology when learning how diseases spread?

People want to trust a leader so they don't have to put any effort into learning about the world. And leaders want to increase their wealth at the cost of the people they govern.
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