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Author Topic: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection  (Read 34061 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #300 on: August 01, 2023, 02:24:14 am »

The "Middle Class" continue to be suckers: Middle-income Americans think prosperity is within reach
$40-$140k is one hell of a wide range for them to survey, I wouldn't put the six figs guys in the same bracket as the five, but divide them into lower mid, mid and upper mid

McTraveller

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #301 on: August 01, 2023, 06:46:28 am »

Eh, I know I'm biased, but given the definition of prosperity:

Quote
“thriving financially, being able to cover living expenses, handle emergencies, and pursue life goals without significant tradeoffs.”

How does this make the middle class 'suckers', even at the lower end of the bracket? You can absolutely achieve that definition on $50k/year, although it is highly geographically dependent.

It's also extraordinarily dependent on personal preferences: what is a "significant tradeoff"? All of life involves tradeoffs; this definition is pretty vague.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #302 on: August 02, 2023, 04:53:14 am »

The "Middle Class" continue to be suckers: Middle-income Americans think prosperity is within reach
$40-$140k is one hell of a wide range for them to survey, I wouldn't put the six figs guys in the same bracket as the five, but divide them into lower mid, mid and upper mid
You also probably want actual data, and not a survey that justifies your position... ;D

Eh, I know I'm biased, but given the definition of prosperity:

Quote
“thriving financially, being able to cover living expenses, handle emergencies, and pursue life goals without significant tradeoffs.”

How does this make the middle class 'suckers', even at the lower end of the bracket? You can absolutely achieve that definition on $50k/year, although it is highly geographically dependent.

It's also extraordinarily dependent on personal preferences: what is a "significant tradeoff"? All of life involves tradeoffs; this definition is pretty vague.
Believing in the middle class makes you a sucker.
They don't exist. They died off years ago.
You're either Rich or Poor.
The whole "Middle Class" is cover for the Rich to slum or the Poor to flaunt.
It's also not about "income" as the one-and-only determinant.  Do you have assets? Hm?
Assets are the real definition of wealth. Anyone that distracts from that is pulling some kind of scam.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #303 on: August 02, 2023, 07:31:35 am »

You also probably want actual data, and not a survey that justifies your position... ;D
"Do you believe in freedom?"
[ ] Yes
[ ] Absolutely

Believing in the middle class makes you a sucker.
They don't exist. They died off years ago.
You're either Rich or Poor.
The whole "Middle Class" is cover for the Rich to slum or the Poor to flaunt.
It's also not about "income" as the one-and-only determinant.  Do you have assets? Hm?
Assets are the real definition of wealth. Anyone that distracts from that is pulling some kind of scam.
Everyone knows being an asset-rich income-poor fallen aristocrat trapped in a gilded castle atop a lonely mountain slowly liquidating what is left of their once venerable house to vulgar bankers, or being an asset-poor income-poor hiker turned-bog dweller who regularly gets mistaken for a cryptid and whose family misses them very much are the only valid forms of class division. All others are simply unacceptable

McTraveller

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #304 on: August 02, 2023, 08:06:09 am »

I mean - I don't understand these statements of certainty with no backing data.  It's a stretch to say that there is no middle class, only rich and poor.  Like I really want to know what definitions are used there, and why the actual definitions are deemed invalid and an oppressive scam?

I just don't see the extensive malicious intent claimed to exist behind so many socioeconomic phenomena...I see most of it as resulting mostly from "I have mine, I don't care about yours" which is more negligence than malice.  Well at least that used to be the case - culture is sadly shifting back to "no I'm willing to actually harm you to get what I want" but that feels more like politics than economics.

Aside: Personally I think that income and material assets are only a portion of what it means to have a rich versus poor life; being rich or poor is just one factor.  I think much of it is actually attitude - there are many people in the world with few material riches, and would consider themselves very "rich" in life. And there are many people with lots of material resources, and consider themselves very poor - not the least evidenced by the many celebrities with tons of wealth but serious depression issues.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #305 on: August 02, 2023, 01:01:09 pm »

I mean - I don't understand these statements of certainty with no backing data.  It's a stretch to say that there is no middle class, only rich and poor.  Like I really want to know what definitions are used there, and why the actual definitions are deemed invalid and an oppressive scam?
It's a popular belief of people who are middle class and don't want to be because they listen to too much punk music.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #306 on: August 02, 2023, 02:45:51 pm »

Either you need to sell your labor to survive, so you're lower class, or you do not.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #307 on: August 02, 2023, 03:10:23 pm »

Either you need to sell your labor to survive, so you're lower class, or you do not.
Right, that's exactly the kind of take that you get from people who are incredibly wealthy from a historical perspective but suddenly aware of the increasing precarity of their economic circumstances and deeply resentful of their parents for failing to immanentize the eschaton. Thanks for the great example.

By this argument, prisoners and the disabled are rich, but Richard Branson isn't.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #308 on: August 02, 2023, 04:02:21 pm »

Prisoners are forced cheap labor, but okay.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #309 on: August 02, 2023, 04:03:52 pm »

Prisoners are forced cheap labor, but okay.

That's not a thing in all countries, America just really didn't want to let go of slavery...
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #310 on: August 02, 2023, 04:10:54 pm »

Prisoners are forced cheap labor, but okay.
Prisoners are not required to work in the US and only 61% did at collection of the latest available statistics.

It is an objective fact that many prisoners do not "need to sell [their] labor to survive". Whatever opinions you have about prison labor have nothing to do with that, and also don't change any of the other ways your statement was wrong. It's just a single cherry-picked whinge.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #311 on: August 02, 2023, 04:18:28 pm »

Prisoners are forced cheap labor, but okay.
Prisoners are not required to work in the US and only 61% did at collection of the latest available statistics.

Depends on the state, from google several states including California have laws mandating prisoners be forced to work.

(13th Amendment is explicit that slavery is still totally cool so long as they're a convict: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.")
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 04:20:46 pm by MorleyDev »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #312 on: August 02, 2023, 04:23:43 pm »

Depends on the state, from google several states including California have laws mandating prisoners be forced to work.

(13th Amendment is explicit that slavery is still totally cool so long as they're a convict: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.")
I'm aware. You do see how that's totally irrelevant to my point, right? What matters is that there are prisoners who don't "need to sell [their] labor to survive", not that some do sell their labor.

Complaining about prison labor is simply nonresponsive.

ETA: Incidentally, the prisoner demographic most likely to be working are college-educated white women, which goes against the "slavery" perspective somewhat.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 04:29:07 pm by Maximum Spin »
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MorleyDev

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #313 on: August 02, 2023, 04:35:29 pm »

I wouldn't count non-voluntary prison labour as selling labour anyway, since...ya know, indentured servitude and all.

Any definition or categories of class are going to have exceptions so debating over them exclusively is pointless either way. And class warfare between the people "desparately trying to keep their home" and "desparately trying to get a home" isn't that useful :)

There's always the proposed expanded class system from UK sociologists:

Precariat - This is the poorest and most deprived class group. People in this group score low for economic, social and cultural factors. They tend to mix socially with people like them. Jobs in this group include cleaner, van driver and care worker. They tend not to have a broad range of cultural interests. People in this group often live in old industrial areas away from urban centres. More than 80% rent their home.

Emergent service workers - This class group is financially insecure with low scores for savings and house value, but high for social and cultural factors. This is the youngest of all the class groups. People in this group have the highest score for emerging culture, which includes going to gigs, using social media and playing sport. They are an urban group, living in inexpensive locations in large cities. They socialise with a broad range of people. Jobs in this group include chefs, nursing auxiliaries and production assistants.

Traditional working class - This class group scores low for economic, social and cultural factors, but they do have some financial security. Many people in this group own their own home. They tend to mix socially with people like themselves. They tend not to enjoy emerging culture, such as going to the gym or using social media. This group has the oldest average age. Jobs in this group include lorry drivers, cleaners and electricians.

New affluent workers - This class group is sociable, has lots of cultural interests and sits in the middle of all the groups in terms of wealth: This youthful class group is economically secure, without being well off. These people have high scores for emerging culture, such as watching sport, going to gigs and using social media. They do not tend to participate in highbrow culture, such as classical music and theatre. People in this group are likely to come from a working class background. Many people in this group live in old manufacturing centres.

Technical middle class - This is a small, distinctive and prosperous new class group. People in this group tend to mix socially with people similar to themselves. They prefer emerging culture, such as using social media, to highbrow culture such as listening to classical music. Many people in this group work in research, science and technical occupations. They tend to live in suburban locations, often in the south east of England. They come from largely middle class backgrounds.

Established middle class - This is the most gregarious and the second wealthiest of all the class groups. People in this group enjoy a diverse range of cultural activities. They socialise with a broad range of people. Many work in management or the traditional professions. Most come from middle class backgrounds. They often live outside urban areas

Elite - This is the wealthiest and most privileged group. They are the biggest earners. They score highest for social, cultural and economic factors. Many went to private school and elite universities - 24% of people in this group were privately educated, far more than in any other class group. This group is exclusive and very hard to join, most come from very privileged backgrounds. 97% of people in this group own their own home.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 04:42:43 pm by MorleyDev »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #314 on: August 02, 2023, 05:13:37 pm »

It's funny that you mention that, because I was just about to introduce the term "precariat", but I prefer a somewhat different definition for it. In fact, that whole categorization is deeply flawed - for example, half the people on the up-side who are supposedly "economically secure" are actually drowning in debt and fuel-dependent. Those lives are truly precarious.
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