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Author Topic: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection  (Read 34039 times)

Thorfinn

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #255 on: January 25, 2023, 11:42:48 am »

Because [gougers] are a moral blight in this world...
Why do you think this? The moral principle, I mean.

Pretty much every time the power goes out in the summer, there are some people who go around and buy all the ice available. Sure, part of it goes to keeping the food cold, but a lot of it just gets put in dishpans to keep some room cooler than it otherwise would be, or dumped in a kiddie pool in the back yard to keep the beer on ice. Quite a bit of it melts on the back porch, never having been put to any use at all, but, hey, at a buck a bag, why not? If you needed it, you had it. On the other hand, the guy who needed a small cooler full to keep his medication cold but got to the store too late is just screwed.

In this world, there are people like the first guy. Whatever the policy, it has to deal with the problems these guys cause. Some stores try limits, which sort of work, but then the same guy just makes trips through each checkout line with 2 bags at a time, and more than once I've seen people with far more than the limits with the clerk giving him a nasty look, but making the sale anyway. At, say, $5 a bag, he's more likely to think, "Do I really need more ice? A bunch of it just melted last time." And the guy with the critical need is much happier to pay $5 than to not have any at all.

Whenever you ponder an idea, the important question is, "Compared to what?"

[EDIT]
This applies in spades to the policy of extortionate fines for gouging. When the potential fine is greater than the annual profit, and even if it's not true, a single disgruntled person filing a claim can impose lawyer costs well over your monthly profit, the smart move is to simply remain closed after a disaster.
[/EDIT]

In this scenario you are comparing the person engaging in dangerous behaviour (a gouger exploiting people in times of crisis) with a person being endangered by reckless behaviour (a child about to be hit by a careless driver). This is funny
I was trying to compare gouger to speeder, the people being "exploited" with the kid getting splatted.

By the way, there's an easy way to keep from being exploited by gougers. Just don't buy from them. But don't even attempt doing the same with the taxing authorities. If you want to know who the real exploiters are, ask yourself, "To whom can I say, 'No'".

If the latter, that's where you had the foresight to set aside a little extra for your neighbor, trusting that if the roles were reversed, he would do the same for you.

If you don't think humans are ingenious enough to devise ways of storing food in ways that are safe from most disaster conditions, you need an explanation for why humans didn't die out hundreds of thousands, millions of years ago. Maybe we've just become terminally stupid?
See:
Access to refrigeration, storage space, the ability to procure such items in sufficient quantity at a price within their means e.t.c. all contribute to this. Even in developed countries, even when there are no times of crisis, you can see this effect on everyday spending. It is trivial for wealthier individuals to purchase bulk items & transport them, whereas items which are sold in smaller units all cost higher per gram or per litre. As a result it is cheaper for wealthier shoppers to buy higher quality ingredients in bulk than it is for poorer persons to buy lower quality ingredients in smaller units. This disparity grows when you consider how many more facilities for storage and cooking are available for wealthier persons than their poorer counterparts. Poverty is self-reinforcing. If you have more market power you can reject bad deals; for poorer persons, they have to take what they can get. This is where price gouging becomes especially evil, in that you severely reward those who have more market power and completely fuck over those without it.
Out of all possible solutions to this; whether it be through education, social values, religion, disaster relief stockpiles, support networks, community outreach, reserve forces e.t.c. why would you pick the only one that creates a perverse incentive for the creation of a parasite class of merchants of misery who actively get people killed in times of crisis and actively make things worse for those who have the will to prepare, but lack the means. The stick of a price gouger is pitiable compared to the stick of the disaster which enables them; but you're giving a carrot to predatory behaviour, and you will get predators if you allow it
I get the feeling you are coming from a lesser developed country. I have no personal experience there. But I have lots of personal experience in the States. If anything, it's become far easier now for those of lesser means to stock up. You have to look at prices, but often Amazon has durable food less expensive than at the big box, and they bring it right to your door. Every year, Bezos gives away Prime to poor people, so they have access to better delivery terms than I do, though honestly, it's not that hard to end up with $25 in your cart so you get free shipping. There's a regional supermarket chain with prices really close to WalMart that delivers a $50 order for free. I use that all the time rather than dealing with the hassle of shopping, though I tip the delivery person generously. And in return, they make sure my order has no damaged packages before they deliver it.

If you live somewhere that options like this do not exist, where there are no sales except gougers, I feel sorry for you, though I can't really empathize as I have no frame of reference.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 11:48:18 am by Thorfinn »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #256 on: January 27, 2023, 08:45:46 am »

Because [gougers] are a moral blight in this world...
Why do you think this? The moral principle, I mean.
Cos it's a predatory practice used by parasites to actively reduce value in an existing society for personal profit

Seems pretty self-evident

If you have a ticket scalper who buys up a whole bunch of tickets to resell them later at higher prices, you actively reduce the supply and use of the tickets in exchange for nothing. Resources which were allocated for people to enjoy the concert show get wasted as less people actually get to access it, and much more value gets wasted and redirected into the pockets of a parasite, which if left unchecked, will eventually kill its host. Hence why concerts are anti-ticket gouging. Substitute concert tickets with life saving supplies and the practice is yet more abhorrent. People will die as a result, who would not have died had they been able to purchase the supplies themselves. They could not purchase the supply because supply was artificially constrained by a gouger. That gouger killed people for personal profit.

That's why it's disgusting m8

Pretty much every time the power goes out in the summer, there are some people who go around and buy all the ice available. Sure, part of it goes to keeping the food cold, but a lot of it just gets put in dishpans to keep some room cooler than it otherwise would be, or dumped in a kiddie pool in the back yard to keep the beer on ice. Quite a bit of it melts on the back porch, never having been put to any use at all, but, hey, at a buck a bag, why not? If you needed it, you had it. On the other hand, the guy who needed a small cooler full to keep his medication cold but got to the store too late is just screwed.
Lol why are you okay with this?

In this world, there are people like the first guy. Whatever the policy, it has to deal with the problems these guys cause. Some stores try limits, which sort of work, but then the same guy just makes trips through each checkout line with 2 bags at a time, and more than once I've seen people with far more than the limits with the clerk giving him a nasty look, but making the sale anyway. At, say, $5 a bag, he's more likely to think, "Do I really need more ice? A bunch of it just melted last time." And the guy with the critical need is much happier to pay $5 than to not have any at all.
In this world people who tried price gouging everyone on PPE and alcohol gel got their stocks confiscated and redistributed for free to keep staff stocks high lol. In this scenario it's that one asshole who bought all the ice to resell it for $5 a bag being forced to give it to the guy who needs to chill their med stocks for free. Supermarket is happy because the price gouger already paid for it all, med stocks are chilled, price gouger gets gouged, world is good

By the way, there's an easy way to keep from being exploited by gougers. Just don't buy from them. But don't even attempt doing the same with the taxing authorities. If you want to know who the real exploiters are, ask yourself, "To whom can I say, 'No'".
Price gougers only arise in situations where supply can be constrained by individuals with outsized market power compared to actual consumers; in such cases where a commodity suddenly becomes critical or supply chains are suddenly interrupted, only an active elimination of predatory gougers is sufficient. If for example someone tried buying all of a certain antibiotic to resell to hospitals, "not buying" is not an option, as the need is constant and immediate. This is especially true for any resource whose supply is being unnaturally limited by a few gougers accumulating great stockpiles to induce an artificial drought in supply

I get the feeling you are coming from a lesser developed country.
I live in the UK. You can drink the tap water and breath the air, but give it some time, we're slowly sinking into the stone age ;(

If you live somewhere that options like this do not exist, where there are no sales except gougers, I feel sorry for you, though I can't really empathize as I have no frame of reference.
Even countries with excellent supply in whatever resources can suddenly experience the conditions necessary to allow price gouging to exist, e.g. Covid-19, the blocking of the Suez Canal, Black Sea shipment blockade, sudden panic/hype over a certain resource e.t.c.

Honestly the only reliable way you can ensure your country does not fall victim to gougers who attempt to create artificial supply constraints is by regulating against it. Your own country had people try to corner onions amongst other things until the government told them to cut that shit out. And that was just two men - two men, with oversized market power, dictating terms to everyone else who actually sold, traded or consumed onions, doing nothing but hold onto onions, adding no value to onions or using any onions for anything other than exploiting those reliant on onions. If you don't bother to regulate vital commodities, inevitably people are going to start getting the bright idea of pricing vital resources according to what they think people will be willing to pay, rather than the actual worth of the product. This is why America pays $98.70 per shot of insulin, but Canada pays $12 and UK $7.52. Yours is the only country in the world that has fantastic supply chains yet allows price gouging anyways; I can't empathize with your frame of reference either - you seem very happy with how your country has been captured by price gougers, endorse it as a moral good and market efficiency, despite being the sole country in the world that permits this in times of peace and prosperity, let alone times of chaos ~o.o~

McTraveller

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #257 on: January 27, 2023, 12:14:00 pm »

Wow I go on a business trip and look what happens!  I don't think I can add any more to what has been said; I've already stated I'm in the camp that thinks price gouging is detrimental to economies and societies, even if it is "pure" capitalism.   I agree with LW that even if you don't consider the social implications (which is bad for economies in the long run), even in the short term it's a misallocation of resources which the extreme capitalist should respect.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Nope
« Reply #258 on: January 28, 2023, 12:29:42 am »

Nope

Thorfinn

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #259 on: February 02, 2023, 03:48:58 pm »

Pretty much every time the power goes out in the summer, there are some people who go around and buy all the ice available. Sure, part of it goes to keeping the food cold, but a lot of it just gets put in dishpans to keep some room cooler than it otherwise would be, or dumped in a kiddie pool in the back yard to keep the beer on ice. Quite a bit of it melts on the back porch, never having been put to any use at all, but, hey, at a buck a bag, why not? If you needed it, you had it. On the other hand, the guy who needed a small cooler full to keep his medication cold but got to the store too late is just screwed.
Lol why are you okay with this?
What makes you think I'm OK with it? I'm just saying it's what happens.

In this world, there are people like the first guy. Whatever the policy, it has to deal with the problems these guys cause. Some stores try limits, which sort of work, but then the same guy just makes trips through each checkout line with 2 bags at a time, and more than once I've seen people with far more than the limits with the clerk giving him a nasty look, but making the sale anyway. At, say, $5 a bag, he's more likely to think, "Do I really need more ice? A bunch of it just melted last time." And the guy with the critical need is much happier to pay $5 than to not have any at all.
In this world people who tried price gouging everyone on PPE and alcohol gel got their stocks confiscated and redistributed for free to keep staff stocks high lol. In this scenario it's that one asshole who bought all the ice to resell it for $5 a bag being forced to give it to the guy who needs to chill their med stocks for free. Supermarket is happy because the price gouger already paid for it all, med stocks are chilled, price gouger gets gouged, world is good
Yep. Agreed. So, like in the real world, next time people won't bother to buy generators to bring them to where people need them. No one gets generators? That's supposed to be a good thing?

By the way, there's an easy way to keep from being exploited by gougers. Just don't buy from them. But don't even attempt doing the same with the taxing authorities. If you want to know who the real exploiters are, ask yourself, "To whom can I say, 'No'".
Price gougers only arise in situations where supply can be constrained by individuals with outsized market power compared to actual consumers; in such cases where a commodity suddenly becomes critical or supply chains are suddenly interrupted, only an active elimination of predatory gougers is sufficient. If for example someone tried buying all of a certain antibiotic to resell to hospitals, "not buying" is not an option, as the need is constant and immediate. This is especially true for any resource whose supply is being unnaturally limited by a few gougers accumulating great stockpiles to induce an artificial drought in supply
This is just silly. In any economy of any size at all, any "market power" that exists is simply because government has decided to interpose itself. Otherwise, the guy who buys for the least, and has the lowest overhead, can afford to sell for the lowest price, which we know the consumer prefers.

I get the feeling you are coming from a lesser developed country.
I live in the UK. You can drink the tap water and breath the air, but give it some time, we're slowly sinking into the stone age ;(
OK. Mostly we can drink the water and breathe the air, except for the relative handful of places where government says it is in charge of water and air. Like for instance, Flint, MI or Jackson, MS.

If you live somewhere that options like this do not exist, where there are no sales except gougers, I feel sorry for you, though I can't really empathize as I have no frame of reference.
Even countries with excellent supply in whatever resources can suddenly experience the conditions necessary to allow price gouging to exist, e.g. Covid-19, the blocking of the Suez Canal, Black Sea shipment blockade, sudden panic/hype over a certain resource e.t.c.
Nope. There are always people who anticipate bizarre, tin-foil hat events. The massive big box stores are not this type. But they manage to find enough morons to blame "gougers" so that they can maintain their profit margins.

Feel free to root for the megacorps all you like. Personally, I'd like it if the local grocery store had a shot.
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McTraveller

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #260 on: February 07, 2023, 07:50:57 pm »

Heh I just read something that claims that "price gouging cannot exist in a free market".

Apparently because if some company tries to price gouge, magically there are no natural barriers to entry (such as availability of natural resources, free capital, physical space, energy, etc.) for competitors to come in and replace supply.

I mean sure, there's a microchip shortage, let me instantaneously convert my food processing plant into an EUV chip fab.

I think what the author meant to say is that price gouging cannot exist in the long term in a truly free market, but that is almost irrelevant for practical purposes, because people are impacted adversely in the short term just as much (arguably even more, because of compounding effects) as the long term.  It also misses that in a truly free market, any entity with gouging power is able to consolidate resources and increase their ability to "gouge" in more markets in the future.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #261 on: May 31, 2023, 02:46:02 pm »

https://fortune.com/2023/05/30/building-wealth-three-step-strategy-tips/amp/

Funny enough, they didn't have the three easy steps to building wealth that I thought of:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If you look at the author of the "tips", you might see which tips he's using...

lemon10

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #262 on: May 31, 2023, 06:17:27 pm »

Heh I just read something that claims that "price gouging cannot exist in a free market".

Apparently because if some company tries to price gouge, magically there are no natural barriers to entry (such as availability of natural resources, free capital, physical space, energy, etc.) for competitors to come in and replace supply.

I mean sure, there's a microchip shortage, let me instantaneously convert my food processing plant into an EUV chip fab.

I think what the author meant to say is that price gouging cannot exist in the long term in a truly free market, but that is almost irrelevant for practical purposes, because people are impacted adversely in the short term just as much (arguably even more, because of compounding effects) as the long term.  It also misses that in a truly free market, any entity with gouging power is able to consolidate resources and increase their ability to "gouge" in more markets in the future.
There are a few complete nonsense assumptions that everything in neo-classical economics is based on.
They just assume that:
People are rational.
Everyone has perfect knowledge.
There are no barriers to entry.

Now obviously this is all complete nonsense and extremely stupid stuff to base the global economic system off, but that doesn't stop them from being core assumptions of the neo-liberal economic system that is propagandized taught in US highschools.
---
And you might say something like "But wait, obviously people aren't rational how can they get away with saying they are?" and they would go "Well, we redefined the term rational so it means something different from the actual definition so that we can pretend its true and justify corporate looting".
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 09:47:42 pm by lemon10 »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #263 on: May 31, 2023, 06:50:04 pm »

I mean, people are also assumed to know every law the second it's passed, and we can see how that works out...

MrRoboto75

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #264 on: May 31, 2023, 09:28:02 pm »

Its a soft science based around human activity, what assumptions do you expect them to make?

The whole study is pointless if you're just going to go "well people might not do what we guess anyway"
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EuchreJack

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #265 on: June 03, 2023, 02:11:32 pm »

I guess I can provide info on the Writer's Guild Strike here.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/23746816/strike-wga-dga-sag-hollywood

I'm not sure to what degree they're getting mainstream media coverage, since they're owned by The Enemy.

lemon10

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #266 on: June 03, 2023, 03:04:54 pm »

Its a soft science based around human activity, what assumptions do you expect them to make?

The whole study is pointless if you're just going to go "well people might not do what we guess anyway"
This might sound a bit simplistic; but how about they make assumptions that aren't obviously wrong?

Now, I do understand the value in a good basic model, but if you are going to use this model for anything in the real world then having it be fundamentally wrong is really stupid.
Its like engineers trying to build a bridge operating under the assumption that said bridge would exist in a frictionless vaccum, not only is it stupid, but its going to get a lot of people killed.
This is relevant because like bad structures horrible economic policy can and does kill people.

And there are totally branches of economics that don't make these stupid assumptions, so even though its a soft science they can just... look at all those other not-stupid economists?
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EuchreJack

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #267 on: June 03, 2023, 10:22:30 pm »

Its a soft science based around human activity, what assumptions do you expect them to make?

The whole study is pointless if you're just going to go "well people might not do what we guess anyway"
This might sound a bit simplistic; but how about they make assumptions that aren't obviously wrong?

Now, I do understand the value in a good basic model, but if you are going to use this model for anything in the real world then having it be fundamentally wrong is really stupid.
Its like engineers trying to build a bridge operating under the assumption that said bridge would exist in a frictionless vaccum, not only is it stupid, but its going to get a lot of people killed.
This is relevant because like bad structures horrible economic policy can and does kill people.

And there are totally branches of economics that don't make these stupid assumptions, so even though its a soft science they can just... look at all those other not-stupid economists?
You're forgetting about the Millions being pumped into perpetrating the Wrong theories. Rich gotta stay rich, and they got the dough to back it up.

McTraveller

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Re: Armchair Economics Thread - Re-Resurrection
« Reply #269 on: June 12, 2023, 04:43:03 pm »

I'm still waiting for TSLA stock price to get back up to where it was when I bought though... I really have poor timing there.  Although considering I bought based on them being an energy company, not a car company, I feel some hope, but maybe delusional... it's less than 3% of my holdings though, so take my lamentations with a grain of salt.

The more annoying thing is, I just bought an EV with a CCS connector.  Also I really wish the government would enforce "must be able to pay at the pump" rules they put in the infrastructure act, and not have to make an account with the Tesla network....
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