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Author Topic: Colony Ship  (Read 12788 times)

helmacon

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #90 on: January 27, 2020, 02:40:31 am »

...ok, wait a second, why would our culture score take a hit from letting people develop new culture?

The issue is not the new culture, but that the new culture will replace the old earth cultures on board. It's one thing to read about something, and a very different thing to actually live and experience it.

For example, take any culture that is currently extinct irl. It's one thing to read about it in a textbook, or learn the language, but without being able to immerse yourself in that culture it's very hard to understand it the same way they did. One of the reasons translations from ancient texts are so difficult is because a lot of writing is contextual and without living examples of those cultures it's hard to understand what that context is. (Latin, for example) We can learn a lot about Rome, but we will probably never fully understand the subtleties of roman poetry, and no one is ever going to worship the roman/greek gods again. When a culture is no longer practiced, it dies.   

The options are to act, or to not act. The "cultural education" is in a large part just providing facilities and structure for traditional cultural activities. Providing formal holidays within communities and specialized spaces, so that people can more easily practice and pass on their culture to the new generations. (ie. If culture is shaped by the environment, build an environment that helps propagate your culture) If you would like to fluff it so that you are not moderating the language, you can do that, but it will not change the mechanics of the choices. (For the record, we already do this irl. You can't publish a medical paper if you are referring to marijuana as "kush". )
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Glass

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #91 on: January 27, 2020, 02:56:51 am »

First off, there is a distinction between restricting the use of slang in official settings and restricting it as a whole. The way it was explained in the update made it sound rather like the latter.

Second, given that we're not awake all of - or even most of - the time, you would think that people would be handling this stuff themselves. You know:
...providing facilities and structure for traditional cultural activities. Providing formal holidays within communities and specialized spaces, so that people can more easily practice and pass on their culture to the new generations.
We're not in charge of day-to-day life. You'd think that people would have instantiated these parts themselves. When people came onboard, they would have begun shaping the facilities to their needs, and establishing their schedules that fit their cultures. People would have figured out how to do the calendar and would have celebrated their holidays as before, because of course they would, it helps keep them sane and people like their culture! Christians will still celebrate Christmas, Chinese people will still have the lunar new year celebrations, Jewish people (assuming we have any, and it would be a shame if we didn't and lost what is maybe the oldest continuous culture) will still celebrate Rosh Hashana and Hanukkah and the like, because people don't just stop doing that.
Do the traditions change over time? Yes, of course they do, and people try to preserve them, and this stuff happens organically, no government intervention required. Hell, I'm fairly certain that almost every religion says that you should educate your children about the religion they were born into, so that they can do it properly.

Specialized spaces for this stuff? Of course people would have already carved them out of the available space. If nothing else, people will have made their own homes into spaces of worship, or at least made particular spaces within them for it. Hell, any cultural practice will have this already; these people would have already had them, and they'll have made their new home to fit their culture just as much as their culture would adapt to space and their new home. This wouldn't even necessarily be obvious stuff - we're talking about stores, how housing is laid out, the presence of parks and where they are, so on and such forth.

I feel like you're overestimating how much culture changes over time. Does the paint job shift? Absolutely, go back 20 years and try to use our slang - or vice versa - and you'd be incomprehensible. But do the core ideas of culture, the core values, the core principles shift that much?
Look at a good 3500 years of Judaism and tell me.
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ZBridges

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2020, 03:07:36 am »

Is this relevant?  It's just a game.  It isn't a perfect simulation.
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wierd

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #93 on: January 27, 2020, 03:27:58 am »

[SCIENCE]

In favor of permitting local culture to develop
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helmacon

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2020, 04:14:01 am »

-stuff-

I'm honestly just trying to make a cool event for the game dude.

If you want further justification, i'll do this one more time. The ship is a cataclysm project put together and run by military forces during the last days on earth. The ship has always maintained strict military protocols because it was considered the last hope for humanity. This environment is not great for culture. (well, military culture is a thing, but you know what I mean) It's one thing to celebrate something in your own house, but without an official holiday you still have to go to work and you don't usually have public events.  How much would you care about Christmas if it was just a day when your parent's broke out double rations after work and you still went to school? And if only a few people in your class were actually from a culture that celebrated Christmas in the first place? Compare that to having the day off, and a real Christmas tree up in the square, with special "real" food provided for your family as well, and a community get-together with everyone else celebrating Christmas too. Nearly a full generation has passed since you left earth. Priorities have changed.

 Cultures change overtime, and that change is vastly accelerated when your planet dies in fire and you are transplanted in a completely foreign environment with only maybe 100 others who share that culture. How long were the Americas colonized before it was no longer a "British" culture? And this is a much larger shift than that. 

also see
~ It's just a game.  It isn't a perfect simulation.



Quote
First off, there is a distinction between restricting the use of slang in official settings and restricting it as a whole. The way it was explained in the update made it sound rather like the latter.

Quote
They propose that communities implement cultural histories education for the youth, and certain precautions be taken against deviations in the culture; for example, standardizing language in formal communications to prevent slang and cultural drift from becoming entrenched.


Unrelated, but
[SCIENCE]

In favor of permitting local culture to develop

Please remember to put your vote as a Bold letter. It makes it a little easier for me to tally votes. I appreciate you adding the disposition tag though. :)
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King Zultan

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2020, 04:38:51 am »

A
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2020, 04:48:39 am »

B
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mightymushroom

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #97 on: January 27, 2020, 10:51:01 am »

A

There was little point to all our previous work preserving our Earth-borne (and Earth born) heritage, including the sacrifice of many before the voyage even began, if we give up on keeping it alive now.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 11:46:54 am by mightymushroom »
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #98 on: January 27, 2020, 11:04:47 am »

Letting a new culture form won’t automatically destroy other cultures
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mightymushroom

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #99 on: January 27, 2020, 12:20:10 pm »

We will likely be in this spaceship for a long, long time.  Greatly reducing current and future discontent will allow us to nip this issue, and the associated security concerns, in the bud.

In the mobile game, at least, it is possible to regain culture score, so we might have that opportunity down the line.
Well, I'm the one who tried to argue for settling on the first world so I don't share that projection. Our mission is to settle. We must be ready and perhaps, yes, even longing to do so; or else tomorrow's generation may simply refuse to leave their familiar confines. And what future for humanity is that, a few thousand pitiful souls struggling through the darkness until one day their machinery fails altogether? Whatever we may become in the farthest future, our immediate need is for the resources and stability of a planet to stand upon.

In the web version of the game, at least, I'm not seeing a big difference in final score if I play longer runs. The difference from upgrading multiple sensors and guaranteeing a fantastic planet seems to be pretty well offset by the attrition suffered along the way. So the sooner we can agree on a new home is better in my view.
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ZBridges

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #100 on: January 27, 2020, 01:31:53 pm »

You make some good points.  I'm a bit torn.
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mightymushroom

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #101 on: January 27, 2020, 02:25:11 pm »

Torn is good. It wouldn't be an interesting decision if there weren't attractions to both sides. :)
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Shadowclaw777

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #102 on: January 27, 2020, 03:58:53 pm »

Taking a penalty to morale isn’t that bad compared to damaging our culture, that usually leads down the road to things like our civilization being ran by either obsolete governments like monarchies and such, but worse of all can lead to authoritarian governments like dictatorships/populist-style government which wouldn’t be that good for the growth of a newfound colony. Protecting culture is the second-most important thing to me, with the first to never take a hit in science.

That’s why I prefer the traditionalist
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Sanctume

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #103 on: January 27, 2020, 10:05:35 pm »

The traditionalist fear is losing control on what expansionist culture will lead to.  A gamble to a hit in morale now compared to a hit to morale when we start colonizing and teaching the preserved culture. 

The expansionist would be those who are awake and move on living in their situation, which when not guided by the culture we are preserving would then become distant from the cryo colonists. 

If Earth reached the point of being extinct, I won't believe that us humans have not evolved far enough to avoid rifts can lead to the divisions that points to war.

Glass

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Re: Colony Ship
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2020, 12:37:40 am »

Ok, wait, I must admit to not being fully clear on how some things are planned to work.
Do we have cryo colonists? I thought we only had the people who were awake on the ship. If we have people in cryo, this becomes rather a different situation.
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Quote from: FallacyOfUrist (on Discord, 11/15/21)
Glass is, as usual, correct.
Yep, as ever, I bestow upon Glass the expected +1
I'm gonna say we go with whatever Glass's idea is.
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