Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Egan_BW]

A deity could exist within the universe and not follow the laws as we know them simply because our understanding of the laws is flawed.

[wierd]

It would still be obeying the laws.

Our understanding of them would be what is wrong-- still "natural" and not supernatural, by definition.

[Loud Whispers]

Unfortunately, anyone who's played The Sims has a reasonably good idea of the answer to that question.

Noah's flood was just deleting the staircase on the swimming pool for the human race

[Magistrum]

That's the tricky part about the supernatural, innit? If it interacts with the real world it is natural, and everything else is bogus by lack of proof due to not interacting with the natural world. It's a catch 20-dumb.

[wierd]

Which is why arguments about the existence of god are dumb. Yes.

[McTraveller]

The alternative is a god outside the universe which cannot be observed and thus cannot be known.

I think there is a third alternative, where there is a god with portions outside the universe and portions inside the universe, the portions of which are inside can be known.

Of course here I'm defining "universe" to be the spacetime we can perceive. The thought experiment is not new - it's the type of concept in Flatland where there is a "universe" of 2D beings and a being in 3D interacts with them in seemingly "supernatural" ways because the 3D being has access to extra dimensions.

[Magistrum]

I think there is a third alternative, where there is a god with portions outside the universe and portions inside the universe, the portions of which are inside can be known.

That's what we're getting at McTraveller. If it has a part which isn't inside the universe, and that part interacts with a part inside the universe, and we can interact with the part inside the universe, then we can interact with the part outside the universe through the mechanism of the part inside the universe, making it a natural event, and killing again the supernatural fun, since it can be tested.

A good demonstration of this is consciousness. You can't measure it in a objective way but we are sure of it's existence because it interacts with stuff. So we can be reasonably sure that, yes, consciousness is an emergent property of at least some organics.

[delphonso]

Seems this thread is taking off - guess I'll join. I apologize for the discordant nature of my post - it's hard for me to put my beliefs into words.

I was raised by my mother and grandparents who are all ardent Lutherans of the same American synod. Our whole family has been raised in it, and about half of this generation (me and several of my plethora of cousins) have dropped the faith. Personally, I had a problem with the Protestant mindset of Faith Alone. I had doubts, as anyone would, when I was about 12 or 13. I asked my pastors and teachers for some guidance and they told me to merely and simply believe. This wasn't enough for me and I eventually lost faith due to inconsistences and contradictions. Biggest being the problem of evil and God's punishments being entirely unjust. (Eternal punishment for anything is unreasonable.) Anyway, I lost faith but didn't tell my family as I think many people don't.

Later, I found Aquinas' Summa Contra Gentiles - and was more frustrated. That might have saved my faith as a youngster. I became interested in Catholicism for a bit, but ran into similar issues. For a time, I went hard in the physical. I used to be really into pop science articles with flowery language about how stupendous the universe is. Again, I lost interest in this as I entered university and learned about real science (my Christian high school didn't teach much in the way of fact-checking or the peer-review process)

Now, I'm quite willing to believe in the unreal, but have issues with religions. Religions are communities, and most of them seem toxic and exploitative to me. I like many faiths, and think they're really beautiful, but haven't seen a religion I'd be willing to join yet.

My personal beliefs are totemistic and animistic. It's a bit odd, but 5 university years studying transcendentalism and then 5 years living in Asia got me here. Basically, I see a spirit and soul in everything. Some intention or purpose behind it, not far from Plato's Forms, but not far from Shinto either. I maintain several rituals, taken from other religions, the biggest being mantra chanting, which I do weekly. I think ritual is important. I think totemically when thinking religiously in the way others pray. When I need guidance, I might think hard on Athena, when things are difficult, Ganesha, when thinking of love, perhaps St. Valentine.

[Loud Whispers]

And if anyone dares to tell you that you cannot hold all of those beliefs together, pray to Baron Maximilian von Ungern Sternberg and summon the avatar of Yama to negotiate your beliefs with them

[McTraveller]

Been traveling for work and have limited time to post...

I think the description of supernatural stuff is a little pedantic rather than effective; I think everyone agrees that if god acts in a power outside our immediate abilities, that is still "natural" power for god (in the "that is the nature of god" sense).  Most people use supernatural to talk about things that can't be explained by current understandings and so it is indeed a moving target as human knowledge advances.  I mean, I'm sure people used to think gunpowder was magic, and still Magnets, how do they work!.

So I think it's still valid to say god is supernatural, even when god is working within "the nature of god", if that nature is outside the realm of our understanding.

EDIT: fixed bad italic tag

[Egan_BW]

Gravity is supernatural.

[delphonso]

And if anyone dares to tell you that you cannot hold all of those beliefs together, pray to Baron Maximilian von Ungern Sternberg and summon the avatar of Yama to negotiate your beliefs with them

Basically. It's pretty immature, but it's comforting, and at the end of the day, that's what faith is about.

[MrRoboto75]

I dunno about you, but you'd think an omnipotent being wouldn't bother making someone as big of a loser as me.

[Iduno]

Everyday, on my way to and from work, I see a magazine rack on the corner, with 1-2 Mormon ladies standing by it to preach to people.

For those unfamiliar, Mormons are required to go out into the world, with little or no support, to talk to strangers about their religion, and try to convert them. Now, you might be thinking "that sounds dangerous and would lead to a lot of unpleasant interactions, and is the sort of thing an exploitative cult does to convince people the only place they belong is in the safety of the cult. Yes, yes it does.

Everyday, a reminder of the abusive shit religion pulls to fake community, and make sure there's a separation between in and out, as a warning to people who might consider leaving.

[Kagus]

I've got a rack station just outside my apartment complex, with Jehovah's Witnesses.

They're actually fairly nice, they don't seek you out and instead just kinda wait around for someone to come talk to them. Far less intrusive than the energy salesmen in the booth right next to them.