Well Toady is trying to expand the graphic code, so if they don't do it which I don't think they will. You can get a team of artists to make possibly the greatest graphic pack to ever touch Dwarf fortress, but if you do don't wore yourself out, because it's going to be a lot of work. Most likely it will take 2 years to 1 year, depending how you pace yourself.
I honestly don't think it will happen either, its just something that fits into what they are currently doing and if they every were going to do it now is the time as it is something that would heavily affect peoples initial perception of the game, so I suggested it.
As for doing it myself I have to say I've never liked this response to suggestions, a simple graphic pack wont get what I'm suggesting, it would require a 3rd party program to read dwarves descriptions then inject the complied image into the DF window or a separate viewer, neither of which I like or want, I personally would like to see current 3rd part functionality from Dwarf Therapist, Legends Viewer and Perfect World, included in DF native so adding more 3rd party stuff is a no thanks from me.
No, it is more than the sum of it's parts. You would know this if you could draw, I have now determined you aren't a very good artist.
I'll start by saying I haven't done art in over a decade so its took me a while to find but here is one piece of my art from when I was still in high school.
I'll be the first to say it is not "good" but I would also say that it does proves that at least I
could draw passably at one point so it not something I which have no understanding of out all.
In particular, the problem is ensuring the structural coherence of a face (which, you know, the plastic surgeon would have access to, while a 2d artist needs to create the illusion of it, so that example is moot), which in turn is necessary to ensure that the face doesn't tumble into the uncanny valley (which is what I was trying to imply with janky). A face that is sitting in the uncanny valley is faaaar more inaccessible and off-putting than any paragraph of text will ever be.
Yes, how you complete the equation does effect the result but the result is still just the sum of its parts so this "structural coherence" you mention is something I know about, some people would say that things like the passage of time time or method used to reach the result is the "more" but I do not personally agree as I see them as just variable parts in the equation.
(Jaw + lips x (Eyes + Nose) x Time) will result in a different "sum" then (Jaw + lips x Eyes + Nose x Time) does but both result are the just the "sum" of their parts.
I personally take the fact that computers can recognise, change and even create faces thanks to machine learning as "proof", computers do not compute "more" only what is, its just a matter of teaching them how to add the parts together to achieve the desired result, which they can do a little now but they are getting better at it.
Note: I know that the definition of "sum" is just the results of addition but I have always used sum to mean result of any arithmetic and by that definition nothing can be "more" then the sum because that would require something from nothing.
Hey, just to interject something as I can somehow draw and I have a vague idea on how this could possibly be done, let me interject in this discussion
1°) Asking Toady to become a 2D artist able to make and combine assets in a hand written code is most likely wishful thinking. Like... that's not going to happen. You would have to hire people, and Toady said no afaik.
No, I was asking to use the artists that he has already hired to do the tileset for the Steam release, when I started this suggestion toady was afaik still at the time working on villains and had said these artists were waiting on him so I though that if he has already hired people so why not use them to try this why they wait.
2°) There are anatomical rules to faces and you can generate faces with numbers and all. The problem in DF would be the absolute opposite : all faces would look alike. Somehow at least. Face structure in DF is based on your dwarfs genes, their hair is based on their culture, and most likely your dwarves will share both. Your problem would be twofolds then ; how to make all dwarves distinguishable from each other in one hand, while allowing your program to generate picture of FBs, night trolls, bogeymen and custom creatures ?
Difference in hair styles, breaking colours up into finer increments to allow for closer shades, increased variability in genes, blemishes and/or scars etc, there are options to enable having enough distinction for recognition 4/5 times and as for FB's, night-trolls and bogeymen at first they can get handled like they are with the tileset, a dozen variants used as fill-ins but as the mains system expands it would need rotting, skinless, skeletal variants of the mainstream stuff for making zombies and stuff, that covers a a decent amount of ProGen critters as many of them are built using the pieces of mainstream critters.
And as for custom critters that is a mod thing so portraits are a mod issue which is why I suggested (2nd or 3rd post) have the calling system be move to raws or something similar so that artists could work semi-independent of the Dev's and modders could mod in images for their custom races.
The Idea was heavily tied into DF's Steam release and the idea that if DF includes mainstream things like this it will appeal to a wider market, this will lead to more sales, more sales means more funds and more fund means the devs could keep the artist hired to keep expanding the system, which is why in one of my early post I said focus on the main four for release (dwarves, humans, elves, goblins) with one or two place holders for the rest of the critters, if DF Steam release is a success the portrait system can keep being expanded alongside DFs programming development and if not then it like tavern games it gets lost in limbo but if the portrait system is reachable by the raw then modders could if necessary expand it themselves but that would need the portrait system to exist first.
I mean Dwarf Fortress is a continuous project without a defined "end" why should its art be any different?
Some people carefully plan out their suggestion, think of all the edge cases and tries to account for it all themselves delivering detailed dot point etc, I just wanted to throw the idea at the wall and see if it sticks, either the Dev's will see the suggestion, think its reasonable and ask the artist themselves or they'll think its unreasonable and not ask, the choice is theirs.
3°)With that said, a stonesense like improved visualisator would be NICE, but I'd prefer for it to be a fan project than to bother Toady with that. If this happens, I'd be glad to give a hand to produce assets.
I prefer the system to be integrated natively if it is possible, I'm not a fan of all the third part utilities DF has already, I use Dwarf Therapist because the native labour system sucks but I would prefer DT systems to be native to DF and the same goes for Perfect World and Legends Viewer, I use them because the other option is DF's horrible native systems not because I like third part utilities.
But, again, no artist working on the game has commented on the ease/difficulty of generating close-up faces for dozens of different playable creatures (plus procgen ones) so I'd be skeptical. They'll more likely be busy with all the new tiles.
Now that Toady's posted about putting Villains on hold so he can start to work on the Steam release I definitely agree that they would be to busy, my initial suggestion was made before that announcement so the last I had heard before that was that the artists where waiting which is why I started the suggestion, if they where going to be waiting another 6 months then they could be doing/testing this while waiting.
It was also partially inspired by Kruggsmash as I had just found his channel and he is the most successful DF YouTuber I've ever seen and personally I can help but attribute some of that to the accompanying art, including the dwarf portraits which helped make the characters feel real imho.
This suggestion went from a very low chance to a no chance with that announcement.
Also I always though it would be difficult as busy work is hard work, I just thought its not difficult relative to DF's overall development goals, if DF itself is a continuous project then way not DF's art as well?
I'm not smart enough to contribute meaningfully to this discussion,
Neither am I really :p but that doesn't stop me
but Mala had a project something like this a while back. This is the thread for it.
Very interesting, A decent proof of concept if nothing else.
Anyway, I'm content to let this thread die, feel free to add its link into the Terrible Suggestions Thread, it was a 1/1000 and it missed time so to move on and focus on stuff other than this failed suggestion, still it was fun and I enjoy this little talk.
Author
Topic: Paper doll portraits for the Steam release. (Read 6738 times)