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Author Topic: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT  (Read 57154 times)

Pillbo

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LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« on: December 16, 2019, 08:32:20 pm »

The wiki hasn't been methodically updated in a long time, a lot of information is missing, incorrect or out of date with the current release.  If people are amenable to this thread being the place to discuss a community effort to update the wiki as much as possible I'll maintain a list of what needs to be worked on in this first post. Post anything that needs to be updated, suggestions to make articles better, !SCIENCE! that needs to be done, etc.  Also feel free to volunteer to tackle an update and I'll add your name to it so we aren't stepping on each other's toes.

I'll keep this updated as long as people show interest.

Original discussion started here.

DF-Wiki Style Guide for reference
DF-Wiki FAQ
DF-Wiki community portal

NEW STUFF TO v.47
  • Divination dice
  • Experiment
  • Mounts
  • Castles
  • Altars
  • Intrigue and other villainous activities
  • Mercenary orgs
  • Merchant companies
  • Counting houses
  • The whole "account" system and how it relates to various acts of sabotage, corruption, etc.
  • Private city towers
  • Intelligent undead
  • Civs breaching into hell in worldgen
  • Bandit forts
  • Specific kinds of demons/evil and their related effects (nightmare -> bogeymen, death -> zombies)
  • Evidence
  • Party creation screen in adv mode
  • Alliances

UPDATES NEEDED

DWARVEN !SCIENCE! THAT NEEDS RESEARCHED

PAGES THAT NEED CLEANED UP AND/OR ORGANIZED

NEW PAGES

FINISHED (?)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 05:11:31 pm by Pillbo »
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therahedwig

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2019, 08:40:18 pm »

Reputation has a thread over here already: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175195.msg8066903#new

There's also some book science that I did here, and that got incorporated into the wiki: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=174850.15 It's somewhat on hold as I just kinda search for the last two unlockable forms, and then I got distracted by reputation :p (If someone finds them, please just edit the page)

Mind, again, there's a difference to be made between not much on the wiki and not much in the game: Prophets just aren't that fascinating right now, and secret identities really don't get more interesting than the subsection in the reputation page.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2019, 10:02:28 pm »

Some organization of existing correct information would be nice to see too. So many pages are long paragraphs that jump about between actual gameplay, bugs, workarounds for bugs, recommendations for Dfhack tools, workarounds for inefficient behaviour (even if intended), etc. All important, but as a noob, first thing I want to know is what button to push in a vannila interface.

But, yeah, first things first, get the correct info up. Will contribute depending on life, etc.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 10:08:13 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Scruiser

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 10:23:45 pm »

For Fortress Mode, the apparent inevitability of the raiding bugs and the extent to which they can corrupt a savefile is understated (I don't know this personally, but from reading forum posts here on it, either the wiki article vastly understates the bugs or the forums exaggerate them.)  If there is a way to avoid/work around them and still use the raids feature, it should be on the wiki.

Likewise for fortress mode, the stress page fail to fully emphasize how broken the current system is and it might be nice to have a list of all the little workarounds I have read on these forums.

Adventure mode has one massive page, which can stay (although for longer sections it may make sense to link to a separate page and only give a brief overview in the main page), but it would also be helpful to have lots of individual articles to make it more easily searchable. (I had to control-F my way through the page as opposed to searching in the search bar).
Among stuff that could use it's own page:
  • I'll second the need for explaining world activities.  I have no idea what to do in adventure mode when I am told about on oncoming army.  I ran across goblins killing each other that ignored me.  It seems like there is a lot of interesting content that people don't know how to have fun with or even find in the first place.
  • It seems like science needs to be done on the conversation tree options and how social skills modify them.  A walkthrough for conversations on what is currently known would be very helpful.
  • A walkthrough of how to use the quest log to find stuff.  In the old version, it was a straightforward label on the map that could be directly followed.  The new version has multiple separate lists of information...
  • A more detailed guide to fighting.
  • A more detailed guide on building sites.  Do beds provide benefits?  Can constructed walls be used to make wild animals path in a way to make hunting easier?  How late can your adventurer work before boogeymen come out for them?

I am fairly new to the latest version of DF... I played some around 2 years ago and a lot 4 years ago.  So I don't know what the community knows well enough to take the lead on this project, but if there are specific science questions that others can confirm need answering I can spend a bit of time testing one or two of them.  Similarily, I am willing to edit the wiki itself, but I would like to have science and testing on the forums to link back to on the page discussions to document everything so there doesn't need to be any arguments or such.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 10:26:29 pm by Scruiser »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2019, 10:36:44 pm »

See, this is the problem. I agree stress is broken, but there are just as many posts on how it's broken as there are on how stress is actually manageable (with a whole bunch of posts in-between on how needs are somehow affecting stress even though, technically they're not). A huge amount of work that, come the next release, all needs to be deleted (and replaced with info on all-new bugs).

A link at the bottom of the page to the bug on the bug tracker marked "note, bugs exist" is all that's really needed. Along with a big note on the front page which says "note, Dwarf Fortress has bugs. Lots of them".

Otherwise we get yet another wall of text on how to work around problems that may or may not have already been fixed. And at the rate the wiki gets updated, likely for way too long.
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Scruiser

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2019, 11:08:57 pm »

I reread the Stress page again, and it looks like it has a link to another page that lists stuff out on how to manage it, so I guess my fault for reading comprehension fail there.  Still, the list of bugs for it is only a single bug, the corpse part issue, which vastly understates the problem, so I stand by my statement that the bug list could use at least a couple more sentences more fully warning the player.

I suppose waiting for the next release for stuff that Toady has confirmed he will rework in the near term is acceptable, but we should restrict that mindset to stuff that we are sure is getting changed soon.  Toady has confirmed the stress system is broken so I will accept you are right about that example overall... but for example, Adventure Mode, a lot of testing needs to be done on features that will stay relatively constant, because the new features that build off them will leave us with even more unanswered questions that could benefit from us having researched the currently unknown questions.

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Flying Teasets

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2019, 11:51:23 pm »

Uh, the wiki seems to be experiencing technical difficulties right now.
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voliol

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2019, 01:06:29 am »

I’ll try to help somewhere with this.

The wiki also has a list of articles containing a {{verify}} token. Any of these articles can be looked over, as they basically need someone to do the science/find a better source for statements that are either made by assumption or rumors of unclear reliability. I’d advise anyone who doesn’t want to get in on the bigger quite advanced issues to take a look at this list. The wiki needs all help it can get, and even your personal !science!/in-game experience can be of much help.

therahedwig

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2019, 05:57:22 am »

For the armies thing...

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163232.msg7390905#msg7390905
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173484.msg7943628#msg7943628

Basically, the only things you can do right now is either to rescue the victims, or to go take a full army on by yourself. The reason for this is that armies have been in the game for quite a while, but they weren't really visible until the world activation, and are part of the aborted army arc. The rest of that arc should be in the release between the steam and the myth and magic update (so, getting your adventurer to become an army commander). You might technically speaking also be able to talk the commander into believing war is a hopeless endeavour, but that would require finding the commander to begin with, which right now is near-impossible.

As for combat, I suspect most of the stuff is on the wrestling page and it seems intended to have kisat dur copied from the thread to the wiki page. If you want an easy but highly productive thing to start on, this would be a good task.

Do keep asking questions about worldgen activities, because it is hard for me to tell what you are looking for when looking at those pages.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 07:37:00 am by therahedwig »
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Severedicks

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2019, 06:51:32 am »

Stuff that needs expanding:

https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Army (if you don't specify the namespace it somehow redirects to Military)
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Quester (diplomacy needs to be expanded, also maybe a mention in Siege)
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Agent
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Festival
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Reputation
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Claim
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Insurrection
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Kobold (what kobold sites look like)
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Cave (kobold caves)
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Trading (worldgen caravans, adventure caravans and suchlike)
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Historical_figure
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:World_activities
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Emigration
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Hearthperson
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Performer (dance/music/poetry forms need to be expanded, can't believe no one posted any beyond Toady's early ones...)
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Market (there is no page for it, it redirects to Town and info is lackluster in that page)
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Faction
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Religion
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Memories
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Library
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Petition
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Legendary_artifact (worldgen artifacts)
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Citizenship
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Mission (little mention of how tribute exactly works?)

Also:

-Don't say "in the new version" or anything like that. The "new version" is nearly two years old (some of the stuff is five years old)
-Mention bugs if there are any, and ideally workarounds
-Don't say silly stuff like "candy", "clown" or "circus". No one's ever been spoiled by demons since DF2014. If you really must, say "HFS" like Toady, and only for demons. Adamantine hasn't been a spoiler for 10 years now
-Don't just link to a post, actually copy and paste the post and editorialize it. It's a wiki, not a links collection
-Lots of stuff you thought was true when you used to play the game in 2013 isn't true anymore. I know it's cumbersome but try to verify the stuff you write if time allows
-Try to search Toady's forum posts for stuff, especially in FotF he sometimes gives out a lot of information
-It seems everyone's on Reddit now, and you can find useful scattered info there. Of course, this being reddit, it's a pain to search and browse. One more reason to centralize all info on the wiki
-Most importantly: When I say expand, I mean add stuff like game screenshots, message logs, keybindings, actual examples: anything that reminds the reader that it's actually a game that you get to play, not just walls of text about an abstract simulator that people admire from apart in the MoMa but no one touches
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 07:56:13 am by Severedicks »
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Silverwing235

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2019, 07:36:03 am »

Uh, the wiki seems to be experiencing technical difficulties right now.

....By which I take it you don't mean 'random pages 404'ing when clicked on' yeah?
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therahedwig

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2019, 07:40:51 am »

Uh, the wiki seems to be experiencing technical difficulties right now.

....By which I take it you don't mean 'random pages 404'ing when clicked on' yeah?
I think they do mean that, it's super frequent right now.

Severedicks, perhaps it is an idea for people to post questions that they have inside the discussion pages of those pages? Because again, it is not obvious whether it is because people are genuinely missing info, or because they don't realize the feature is half-implemented and thus not very interesting (in which case, do we need to write that down too?).

Edit: ah, you literally just want screenshots... I guess we'll have to wait until the wiki stablizes, because it is impossible to upload anything right now.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 07:45:45 am by therahedwig »
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Severedicks

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2019, 07:55:44 am »

I mean, ideally it would be neat to have very detailed and exact mechanics, like we have for hunger, thirst and drowsiness. But I get that not everyone is Quietust and not everyone has time to deeply investigate into a feature that may turn out to be indeed half-implemented. So failing that, yeah just screenshots and guides on how to do/view stuff (involving keybindings) are a decent fallback.
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therahedwig

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2019, 08:56:01 am »

Still though, I tried to tackle the festival page... only to realize everything that could be said about them was already said. So I just kinda added paragraphs (so it's easier to tell their purpose) and emphasized that it's a half-finished feature.
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Pillbo

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Re: LET'S FIX THE WIKI! - A DF COMMUNITY PROJECT
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2019, 02:43:52 pm »

Updated with everything I've read so far, let me know if I missed anything.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I added those links, as far as prophets, secret identities, etc I don't want to make that decision because I have no idea. If the consensus among other players is that there's nothing to add there I'll move it or remove it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, I see that a lot, feel free to post any links that needs cleaned and I'll add them to a list.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Is this a problem though? There's good and bad info spread everywhere on the internet about stress, people obviously want that info and it's not clearly stated in one location. Yes the version will update and hopefully stress is fixed, but people still play version 34, so why is it a problem if someone updates the wiki with a stress tutorial and a month later the new version requires a version of the page without it?  People can still learn about how to manage stress in 44.12 and the info is collected in one convenient location. 

It's only a problem if nobody maintains the wiki, that's the point of this thread.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nice, once the wiki is back up if you could provide a link that would be helpful.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Great! I added a finished section, so people can still say if they think things need more work.
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