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[muldrake]

It would be nice if some of the preconfigured embarks would include things like cassiterite/tetrahedrite/coke since it wouldn't necessarily occur to noobs to bring these relatively cheap components to start a bronze industry immediately.

There are no pre-confgured embark profiles by default in DF, those are written in by the player themselves or saved to template.

Most LNPs seem to package a few.  It would be a good idea to have them in the base game.

[Shonai_Dweller]

It would be nice if some of the preconfigured embarks would include things like cassiterite/tetrahedrite/coke since it wouldn't necessarily occur to noobs to bring these relatively cheap components to start a bronze industry immediately.

There are no pre-confgured embark profiles by default in DF, those are written in by the player themselves or saved to template.

Most LNPs seem to package a few.  It would be a good idea to have them in the base game.

Maybe one for regular fortress and one for reclaims, but experimenting with different embarks is part of the fun. Steam Workshop will be full of people's recommended embark profiles for those who want to follow what other people do.

Noobs don't need to start a bronze industry. They want to dig a hole, brew some booze, cut down a tree and patch up a woodcutter with a crushed leg.

[muldrake]

Noobs don't need to start a bronze industry. They want to dig a hole, brew some booze, cut down a tree and patch up a woodcutter with a crushed leg.

I don't see how they could be harmed by giving some starter options other than "embark at random" and putting together a bunch of things they have no idea what they even are.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Noobs don't need to start a bronze industry. They want to dig a hole, brew some booze, cut down a tree and patch up a woodcutter with a crushed leg.

I don't see how they could be harmed by giving some starter options other than "embark at random" and putting together a bunch of things they have no idea what they even are.

Current game doesn't have an "embark at random" option either. Doubt Steam would.

Half of the fun of the game is trying stuff out. Yes, tell people what things are in the default embark, obviously. Especially during the tutorial. But the more you hand-hold with suggested builds for every situation, the less fun people are actually going to have exploring the game.

[muldrake]

Half of the fun of the game is trying stuff out. Yes, tell people what things are in the default embark, obviously. Especially during the tutorial. But the more you hand-hold with suggested builds for every situation, the less fun people are actually going to have exploring the game.

And a lot of people quit early, frustrated, before even getting there, hence the "saving the noobs" thread existing at all.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Half of the fun of the game is trying stuff out. Yes, tell people what things are in the default embark, obviously. Especially during the tutorial. But the more you hand-hold with suggested builds for every situation, the less fun people are actually going to have exploring the game.

And a lot of people quit early, frustrated, before even getting there, hence the "saving the noobs" thread existing at all.

Frustrated by what though? Certainly not a lack of embark profiles. Lack of information, graphics, descriptions, reasons things are happening, awkward controls, opaque connections, bugs, stress, text-walls... These are far more important to work on.

If you're frustrated by exploring a sandbox because the game doesn't give you the exact combination of items to work out any problem, you're probably better off playing something else.

[muldrake]

Half of the fun of the game is trying stuff out. Yes, tell people what things are in the default embark, obviously. Especially during the tutorial. But the more you hand-hold with suggested builds for every situation, the less fun people are actually going to have exploring the game.

And a lot of people quit early, frustrated, before even getting there, hence the "saving the noobs" thread existing at all.

Frustrated by what though? Certainly not a lack of embark profiles. Lack of information, graphics, descriptions, reasons things are happening, awkward controls, opaque connections, bugs, stress, text-walls... These are far more important to work on.

If you're frustrated by exploring a sandbox because the game doesn't give you the exact combination of items to work out any problem, you're probably better off playing something else.

Considering the embark menu is one of the main things they're currently working on, apparently the devs realize that its general inaccessibility and obtuseness is an obstacle to entry.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Half of the fun of the game is trying stuff out. Yes, tell people what things are in the default embark, obviously. Especially during the tutorial. But the more you hand-hold with suggested builds for every situation, the less fun people are actually going to have exploring the game.

And a lot of people quit early, frustrated, before even getting there, hence the "saving the noobs" thread existing at all.

Frustrated by what though? Certainly not a lack of embark profiles. Lack of information, graphics, descriptions, reasons things are happening, awkward controls, opaque connections, bugs, stress, text-walls... These are far more important to work on.

If you're frustrated by exploring a sandbox because the game doesn't give you the exact combination of items to work out any problem, you're probably better off playing something else.

Considering the embark menu is one of the main things they're currently working on, apparently the devs realize that its general inaccessibility and obtuseness is an obstacle to entry.

Yes. Hope they do a good job with it. It's a tough list to look at right now.

(Not sure why this was a reply to me. I was ranting about the idea of providing new embark profiles, which is pretty much unrelated).

[Maximum Spin]

Half of the fun of the game is trying stuff out. Yes, tell people what things are in the default embark, obviously. Especially during the tutorial. But the more you hand-hold with suggested builds for every situation, the less fun people are actually going to have exploring the game.

And a lot of people quit early, frustrated, before even getting there, hence the "saving the noobs" thread existing at all.

The thing is, though, this statistic applies to every game.
Some people are just dumb, you know?

[voliol]

Fixing the thread subject once again. I don't know why it became a "+" to begin with, it's kind of strange.
Regarding the embark screen, if we're getting a tutorial (which we will of some kind, but the details are unknown enough that I allow myself to talk hypothetically) it should point out to the player that the detailed embark is "an advanced option" and not recommended for first-time players. Yes, it is an easy way out to focus on that instead of making it 100% noob-friendly, but the embark screen is by nature cumbersome, so it is best approached by the players (and developers) with that in mind. I don't support the railroading option of disabling the detailed embark screen altogether though; even if they are noobs, players warned about it should take it seriously enough to either make it through just fine, or realize they've bit off more than they can chew and return to the standard embark without lashing out on the game.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Yes. As a noob, I loved the idea that I could have complete control over my dwarves and everything they bring with them if I really wanted it. That overwhelming list, that I didn't have to deal with, with its hundred varieties of leather pants, spoke to the great depth of the game waiting for me if I could pass the initial noob hurdles of digging a hole, cutting down some trees and constructing some beds.

A few turns of Fun later and I was ready to modify my setup. Each time slightly differently and finding out what worked, what was boring (1 or no picks!), and eventually what would help me out with a making a quick bronze industry.

The noob who rage quits because they don't understand an advanced options menu likely was never the audience for a complex game in the first place.

(Rage quitting when basic worldgen's most obvious starting options cause a multiple hour world generation is quite understandable though. That should certainly be addressed).

[Starver]

(@Voliol, but Ninjaed by SD)
A sort of "You could, if you want, modify things when you know what you want, but it's perfectly possible to dive in..." sort of thing?  While arranging for the normally randomised 'dive straight in' approach to be suited for later needs.

But assuming the Tutorial mode doesn't completely stop (untutored) messing about by the inevitably perverse excited new player who can't resist toggling every 'switch' they can find[1], perhaps the alternative would be to 'dip in' to it. Generate a specially seedless embark-loadout, and explain that seeds are usually included but ask them to (under constraints/reversible circumstances) have a poke around in the Prepare Carefully interface until they have gained(/restored) the requisite number of the seed stocks.  Similarly guide/funnel them to spending their points on getting the skill-mix the Tutorial Migrants will need (with wiggleroom for personalisation), rather than making it a fait accompli hidden in the background and losing the opportunity to educate.


(TL;DR; - Tutorial points out you don't need to plan carefully (and can click <here>), but asks you to do it (by clicking <there>) just to perhaps add a Social skill to a given dwarf (suited to make them guaranteed Expedition Leader, or something else trivial and without a single solution) and then fill in missing/fewer-than-usual Rock Nuts (to later show their relationship with Quarry Bush, one of the less intuitive such relationships in the game) atop an otherwise full(ish) prepared setup.)



[1] The philosophy of Tutorial mode is stated as 'correcting' the scenario to fulfil the next module of learning, e.g. arranging an injury to guide you through the treatment process, but someone who swaps the anvil out in order to buy several bulls with the points (or whatever damnfool thing they end up trying) perhaps shouldn't be rewarded by just wishing a new anvil upon them when normally it'd be time to use the one they normally would have brought with them. (Leave that 'correction' to when their original anvil is whisked away by a kea, or something else out of their control.)

[voliol]

Yeah that’s a fair point, tutorializing becomes harder if the player is missing the required items.

But, poofing the items into existance, and noting the player about it, solves that. Dwarf Fortress is such a dynamic game, that unless you really restrict the player they will find ways to miss important tutorial items, with or without a custom embark. Trees, water, wild animals, stressed non-wild animals, cave-ins are all potentially lethal to a dwarf, and the last one can happen as soon as you get to digging. Being able to poof forth items, or repair trouble the player causes is pretty much required for a functioning Dwarf Fortress tutorial mode.

I don’t think the Tutorial should direct new players toward the advanced/detailed embark screen. The preset embark works just fine, and players need to get into the main gameplay routine as soon as possible. Especially as world-gen (should the tutorial include it) is time-consuming, even for smaller world sizes. Should a game take several minutes before I even get to the main tutorial I would certainly be more likely to give up and quit.

It’s not like the detailed embark screen needs much of a tutorial either, anyone familiar with any kind of RPG or management game should be aware of the principles behind of a party/item setup. Not being familiar with the items/skills, and it being tedious, is why new players shouldn’t be directed to it.

[Starver]

I'm just thinking that 'dipping in for a taste', rather than "don't click that!" (disabling, or even hiding it, in extremity), might be better.

Showing a promise of what can be done, even if gently coralling them past all but a demonstrative sample of these possibilities.

Spoiler: Loadsawords to justify my attitude to the above (click to show/hide)

(I also really hate game tutorials that say "And now click here... No, here!  This single spot that I'm highlighting!!"[1], so it should at least be couched in choice, in a manner the tutorial-writer knows is compatible with later needs/not too extraordinary a fix. Totally missing out this stage, without utterly hiding it from me if I didn't know about it already, would be off-putting to me. And so I'm trying to find a balance that avoids that, but also doesn't antagonise a straight-into-the-creche advocate. Whatever someone in that latter category might then think post-tutorial (I hope they'd be hooked), that is a demographic hard to pander to without disrespecting the more clear catchment of players who will continue to enjoy it.[3])


[1] I've got an idle-clicker type game in which I'm deliberately a willingly holding back on the "world reset" stage. The objective demand is that I get a base upgrade only available for a cost of 15(ish) "Reset Award Points", which I'm actually up to ~1500 of now as I stubbornly stick with slow, slow progress investigating all the map and upgrades that I can find without building the resource building that I'll only get when I do restart the map, build the HQ back up to where I am, spend those 15 special points (leaving me 99% of what I have so far accumulated, and can continue to enjoy more bonus from[2]) to upgrade the HQ and then jump through the next deliberate hoop, whatever that turns out to be.

[2] Because I hate runnng out of these points, in other such games I waste time with. So easy to spend. As is the game designer's wish, with it usually forcing some other playing action (or Pay To Play). Thus I set my own aims as much as possible, just for bloody-mindedness.

[3] As per footnote-2, I think I'd be Ok, being so far out the other side, if it interested me as it should do, but I'm thinking of those more in the median position.

edited. Came to clarify a bad phrase, left having Spoiler-jailed the actually distractingly unreadable stuff.

[muldrake]

Half of the fun of the game is trying stuff out. Yes, tell people what things are in the default embark, obviously. Especially during the tutorial. But the more you hand-hold with suggested builds for every situation, the less fun people are actually going to have exploring the game.

And a lot of people quit early, frustrated, before even getting there, hence the "saving the noobs" thread existing at all.

The thing is, though, this statistic applies to every game.
Some people are just dumb, you know?

I thought this was the "save the noobs" thread, not the "noobs are dumb and should go away" thread.