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[darkhog]

I've initially bounced off DF, but then tried it again after watching some YT videos online. Maybe your friend needs some visual learning (i.e. watching someone else play it?) Also suggest him to download Meph's tileset - playing DF with it is a joy.

[PatrikLundell]

I think another thing that would help new players would be a change to how labors are distributed upon embark.

By which, I mean (aside of standard setting up labors according to dwarven skills), randomly distributing labors in a way that would make at least 1 dwarf capable of doing each labor (even if he/she doesn't have any skill in it). This would cut down on "Why my dorfs don't do X" questions dramatically (they would still happen as there may be other reasons, but at least the biggest one, labor distribution, would be take care of).

That would change one problem for other ones.
- Important work won't get done because the dorf assigned the skill is busy doing less important tasks. It's not possible to know beforehand which tasks a player (in particular a newbie following some advice or other on which tasks to start with) might find important.
- Once the first migrant wave arrives you'd get not only the job of assigning roles to the migrants, but also removing those roles from the starting 7.

[Telgin]

it will also not be there for the players on the new steamrelease who want an all-in-one package.

It's unfortunate so many people get so easily discouraged.  One of my good friends is interested in DF because of the storied I've told of my forts, but he has very little patience, and is fairly computer illiterate despite being an avid gamer.  He tried installing it and playing a tutorial on his own, but gave up at some point early on.  I think that had I been there to talk him through things, he would have stuck it out.  It's hard to say for sure.

Has anyone else had an experience like this?

I have.  I was even there trying to walk people through playing early on, but then I realized that I couldn't even tell them what to do half of the time because I used muscle memory to hit keys and didn't even remember which ones did what just by naming them.

Nobody I've tried to show it to stuck past a few months in game.

[darkhog]

it will also not be there for the players on the new steamrelease who want an all-in-one package.

It's unfortunate so many people get so easily discouraged.  One of my good friends is interested in DF because of the storied I've told of my forts, but he has very little patience, and is fairly computer illiterate despite being an avid gamer.  He tried installing it and playing a tutorial on his own, but gave up at some point early on.  I think that had I been there to talk him through things, he would have stuck it out.  It's hard to say for sure.

Has anyone else had an experience like this?

I have.  I was even there trying to walk people through playing early on, but then I realized that I couldn't even tell them what to do half of the time because I used muscle memory to hit keys and didn't even remember which ones did what just by naming them.

Nobody I've tried to show it to stuck past a few months in game.

And this is how Telgin has become The Noob Killer.

[Telgin]

Well, in fairness, it was just two people.  Technically not even statistically significant!

[JesterHell696]

It's unfortunate so many people get so easily discouraged.  One of my good friends is interested in DF because of the storied I've told of my forts, but he has very little patience, and is fairly computer illiterate despite being an avid gamer.  He tried installing it and playing a tutorial on his own, but gave up at some point early on.  I think that had I been there to talk him through things, he would have stuck it out.  It's hard to say for sure.

Has anyone else had an experience like this?

Yeah, My cousin, brother and two friends, they loved the stories I had from DF so I tried to show them the game and I could see the enthusiasm drain from their face once they actually saw DF, explaining that its got a bad UI and no graphics didn't help much and I understand it really.

The best way to describe my feelings about it is that I tolerate DF's horrible interface, controls, graphics because I love the mechanics buried behind them and I'm willing to push though but that is a lot to ask of people "DF is a great game you just have to push though the bugs, UI, lack of tutorial, Ascii graphics" etc, kind of makes it a hard sell when its a free game and now that they're going to sell it commercially its a bad review death sentence, hence why they're getting an official tileset and started this topic.

I would say that out of all the 3rd party utilities Dwarf Therapist is the most "necessary" for a commercial release, which is just to say that if Steam players have to use DF's native labour assignment I can see some really pissed off players review bombing DF, could potentially be mitigated a bit by having a screenshot of the labour assignment screen be prominent on the Steam page.

I would say that if I had to choose three 3rd party utilities to include in DF native it would be Dwarf Therapist is 1st, Legends Viewer is 2nd and Perfect World 3rd as each one just improves upon a native aspect of the game.

[PlumpHelmetMan]

I personally think the Steam page for the game should make it clear somewhere in the description that DF Classic is a thing and encourage new players to try out the free version first to see if they like it, and then buy the commercial version later if they do. There's a chance IMO that noobs might be a bit more forgiving towards the game if they're informed upfront that the version they're looking at is merely an optional payment for a few extra features. At the very least they're less likely to feel ripped off.

[JesterHell696]

I personally think the Steam page for the game should make it clear somewhere in the description that DF Classic is a thing and encourage new players to try out the free version first to see if they like it, and then buy the commercial version later if they do. There's a chance IMO that noobs might be a bit more forgiving towards the game if they're informed upfront that the version they're looking at is merely an optional payment for a few extra features. At the very least they're less likely to feel ripped off.

I can agree with this, there has to be someway of ensuring players know what they're getting into with DF, maybe reach out to some streamers and youtubers about giving them early press access so that there are some videos up the day before steam release so that people can see what they'll be buying before they do, DF does have cult status so they might even be able to get some interest in a one-shot from larger names if they're lucky.

Mind you I'm sure Kitfox games as a professional publisher would know how to handle this issue better then I.

[clinodev]

I can agree with this, there has to be someway of ensuring players know what they're getting into with DF, maybe reach out to some streamers and youtubers about giving them early press access so that there are some videos up the day before steam release so that people can see what they'll be buying before they do, DF does have cult status so they might even be able to get some interest in a one-shot from larger names if they're lucky.

Mind you I'm sure Kitfox games as a professional publisher would know how to handle this issue better then I.

I happen to know Kitfox already have a good start on a list of streamers and YouTubers. There's actually even the beginnings of an official Twitch DF team. They're smart folks. 

[JesterHell696]

I happen to know Kitfox already have a good start on a list of streamers and YouTubers. There's actually even the beginnings of an official Twitch DF team. They're smart folks. 

I figured as Twitch and YouTube seem to be the main marketing platforms for games now days but didn't want to presume.

I'm hoping that DF's cult status and having "The game that was a source of inspiration to the developers of both Minecraft and Rimworld" as a pitch point could attract some slightly bigger names, maybe not Markiplier or Jacksepticeye big but bigger then a small indie game would normally get.


Do you know any of names on this list?

[clinodev]

Do you know any of names on this list?

It's been quite a while and my focus at that time was on making sure the people who already play the game for others were not forgotten, sorry.

All the names I could list for you at this point are the obvious people well-known to the community.

[Pvt. Pirate]

I happen to know Kitfox already have a good start on a list of streamers and YouTubers. There's actually even the beginnings of an official Twitch DF team. They're smart folks. 

I figured as Twitch and YouTube seem to be the main marketing platforms for games now days but didn't want to presume.

I'm hoping that DF's cult status and having "The game that was a source of inspiration to the developers of both Minecraft and Rimworld" as a pitch point could attract some slightly bigger names, maybe not Markiplier or Jacksepticeye big but bigger then a small indie game would normally get.


Do you know any of names on this list?

for the german community, i'd suggest Gronkh, but i guess he might be too big for this.

[Bulwersator]

For me - I expect problem with gamebreaking bugs. People are not going to like "you can't do anything with that" or "you must apply this weird workaround".

I tried reporting bugs, making reproducible saves making easier to fix them, I made that poll in attempt to find the worst ones.

I stopped playing DF some time ago because it turned into endless workarounds for various bugs. I have no bug problem with UI and interface (though it is horrifying and really should be fixed).

I though about playing DF again, but I checked now my old "What is the worst bug in DF?" poll ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111051.0 ) and over six years later I checked following top bugs (over 2% of votes)

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5895 - fixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5991 - fixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=535 - reported in 2010, unfixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1582 - reported in 2010, unfixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=94 - reported in 2010, unfixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5312 - fixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2712 - reported in 2010, unfixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=1451 - reported in 2010, unfixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2922 - fixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=412 - reported in 2010, unfixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5097 - reported in 2012, unfixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=3190 - fixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4552 - fixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=136 - reported in 2010, unfixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=33 - fixed
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=4230 - reported in 2011, unfixed

It is impossible to fix all bugs in any real software*, but decade old serious bugs are frustrating.

At least for me it sapped enjoyment from the game.

I know that Toady is not obligated to cater to me, but given explicit question I want to give my answer.

Though I see more fixed bugs than I expected, I guess that I should retry in six years - maybe second half of the worst bugs from 2013 will be fixed? Maybe I will update my poll once new version will be released, not sure is it worth doing.

---

As far as I know, fixing bugs is not a high priority. And preparing reproducible save that may take hours of work is waste of time because it will be completely ignored (or at least there was no feedback to saves that I have seen, new version was released and save stopped being useful, with bug ignored for years). I realized that I am wasting my time that is probably not welcomed and switched to doing different things with my life.

I hoped that paid release to wider public means that some serious bugfixing happened/will happen, but for now I see no evidence of that.

Still, thanks for making DF! It was one of the best works of art/games/software that I have seen, and given that I obtained it for free I do not feel entitled to anything.

I just wish it had lower number of systems and features and more actually working system, features and interactions.

(endrant, sorry, six year later I am still flustrated - DF is so close to what I want and it still fails due to slightly different priorities)

---
*there are rare exception like TeX, but it is as rare as politicians that are successful, moral, effective and useful at once.

[JesterHell696]

It's been quite a while and my focus at that time was on making sure the people who already play the game for others were not forgotten, sorry.

All the names I could list for you at this point are the obvious people well-known to the community.

Don't know why you're sorry, you had more important priorities and I was merely curious.

for the german community, i'd suggest Gronkh, but i guess he might be too big for this.

I see no harm in them trying to contact him to see if he's interested and in fact I would personally encouraging it, having content creators native to a demographic helps a lot as I understand it.

Also when I said "maybe not Markiplier or Jacksepticeye big" it was more that I don't think they would do it rather then it not being worth the effort of asking, looking into their videos and its not a 0% chance as they do seem to do indie stuff and DF could be done as it seems both Markiplier and Jacksepticeye played Oxygen Not Included on their channels and that's a simulation heavy colony builder so with the right pitch I could see something happening.

DF has cult status/is iconic
DF is/was on presentation in NY museum of modern art
DF is a source of inspiration for some highly successful indie games like Minecraft and Rimworld.

DF does have some good pitch points for it being showcased if nothing else, but this is getting a bit off track from saving noobs to marketing stuff which not what was asked and most definitely not my specialisation so lets just say that good Streamer/YouTuber coverage will help noobs understand what to expect from DF.

[Pvt. Pirate]

It's been quite a while and my focus at that time was on making sure the people who already play the game for others were not forgotten, sorry.

All the names I could list for you at this point are the obvious people well-known to the community.

Don't know why you're sorry, you had more important priorities and I was merely curious.

for the german community, i'd suggest Gronkh, but i guess he might be too big for this.

I see no harm in them trying to contact him to see if he's interested and in fact I would personally encouraging it, having content creators native to a demographic helps a lot as I understand it.

Also when I said "maybe not Markiplier or Jacksepticeye big" it was more that I don't think they would do it rather then it not being worth the effort of asking, looking into their videos and its not a 0% chance as they do seem to do indie stuff and DF could be done as it seems both Markiplier and Jacksepticeye played Oxygen Not Included on their channels and that's a simulation heavy colony builder so with the right pitch I could see something happening.

DF has cult status/is iconic
DF is/was on presentation in NY museum of modern art
DF is a source of inspiration for some highly successful indie games like Minecraft and Rimworld.

DF does have some good pitch points for it being showcased if nothing else, but this is getting a bit off track from saving noobs to marketing stuff which not what was asked and most definitely not my specialisation so lets just say that good Streamer/YouTuber coverage will help noobs understand what to expect from DF.

you're totally right. gronkh made Minecraft LPs and some indie point&click adventures, he comments his actions with witts, dark humor. he mgiht be just the right person to ask.
also i'd totally watch the first 5-10 episodes of his DF LP as long as he doesn't blare a "like&sub" every now and then or during the first half of the video (which he didn't do last time i watched one of his LPs years ago (it was harvey's new eyes)).

so as you stated, this is leading OT, so i'll report us both to the mods for this misbehaviour
*JK

honestly, if we solved some of the previously mentioned probs a newb faces and some of the worst misbalances about stress and werebeast/FB attacks and some YT-gurus do LP videos about the game, playing the tutorial maybe, that would definitely keep most of the newbs from being too frustrated to lift their own frustrationtolerance up a little bit and actually start enjoying failing.

with a little "tutorial" asking the new player if they want an introduction into the game and if answered "yes", suggesting to start it in an easier embark and what the world parameters do, suggesting creation of an easier world, selecting (and explaing the details of) an easier embark side, suggesting an allrounder tutorial embark preset (like for example nebulatrons) etc. and someone doing LPs on that, and maybe also detailed videos on how to deal with certain possible early game threats, this might be an absolute win!