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[Vyro]

Pretty much exactly that is planned already for the releases following the magic release (which will be after the steam one) 

Yeah, right, now I vaguely remember something like that. Except a lite version of this stuff is needed now, not in another two years maybe. Think of the poor nooblets! And all that.

[Bumber]

Yeah, right, now I vaguely remember something like that. Except a lite version of this stuff is needed now, not in another two years maybe. Think of the poor nooblets! And all that.

Steam achievements can be goals. Set up beekeeping industry. Make mog juice.  Steal an artifact. Unleash the HFS.

[gchristopher]

Clothing and ownership are hard to describe in a sane way.

It's extremely difficult for a new player to figure out how many new clothes their dwarves need when dwarves are constantly claiming upgraded clothing and retaining ownership of the old clothing for mysterious, arbitrary, and impossible to change period of time. Old, sill claimed, clothes litter bedrooms, battlefields, and construction projects.

There no way to strip dwarves of x and XX items, or configure hauling to deal with them in a way that separates new and worn items. One way to fix that would be adding "wear level" to stockpile/hauling settings, analogous to item quality.

It's all fixable with dfhack, but item ownership feels half-baked without the a economic system and management menus behind it.

Maybe an init setting to disable ownership entirely until there's a full system to manage it, with menus to see what dwarves own, confiscate/reimburse them for items to be returned to communal use, etc? Does ownership really add anything to the game experience right now besides headaches?

This especially relevant because FPS is the #1 enemy of Dwarf Fortress games, and item count is frequently cited as an FPS reducer.

[Schmaven]

Since clothing always wears out, there's no way to avoid a clothing industry.  I just constantly produce it using the workshop profiles.  All dropped and tattered clothing always makes it to a stockpile eventually in due time.  Everyone ends up with fresh clothes, and the surplus can be traded.  I suppose ownership is just what prevents a dwarf from taking the shirt off another's back? 

To separate new from worn items, I have my clothier's shops set to give to a stockpile that accepts from links only.  Then another stockpile is by the trade depot to take from anywhere, which ends up being all the xxClothesxx the dwarves replaced with fresh ones.  Simply having sufficient extra new clothes seems to be all that's needed for dwarves to abandon their XclothesX.  For a fortress of 130, a single clothier can easily produce more than enough pigtail clothing of every type for everyone, given enough cloth. 

[darkhog]

IMO, it would be prudent to warn players about embarking in dangerous conditions (evil biome, aquifer present, etc.). Like a very explicit warning (of course with an ability to be turned off by experienced players). Also there should be an option to auto find an easy embark (no acquifer, calm biome, lots of resources).

[Shonai_Dweller]

IMO, it would be prudent to warn players about embarking in dangerous conditions (evil biome, aquifer present, etc.). Like a very explicit warning (of course with an ability to be turned off by experienced players). Also there should be an option to auto find an easy embark (no acquifer, calm biome, lots of resources).

That's how it works right now. I mean, make the interface a bit clearer for people first seeing it, add some pop-ups about each option and stuff, but the warnings (aquifer, no wood, salt water, etc) and ability to select a non savage, non-evil, aquifer-free embark are all part of the standard embark process.

[gchristopher]

Since clothing always wears out, there's no way to avoid a clothing industry.  I just constantly produce it using the workshop profiles.  All dropped and tattered clothing always makes it to a stockpile eventually in due time.  Everyone ends up with fresh clothes, and the surplus can be traded.  I suppose ownership is just what prevents a dwarf from taking the shirt off another's back? 

To separate new from worn items, I have my clothier's shops set to give to a stockpile that accepts from links only.  Then another stockpile is by the trade depot to take from anywhere, which ends up being all the xxClothesxx the dwarves replaced with fresh ones.  Simply having sufficient extra new clothes seems to be all that's needed for dwarves to abandon their XclothesX.  For a fortress of 130, a single clothier can easily produce more than enough pigtail clothing of every type for everyone, given enough cloth.

Yep, that works except for traded items, items stripped from enemies, and items dropped and scattered by dwarves claiming upgraded clothing. (Remember that dwarves will drop pristine clothing to go claim a higher quality piece, in addition to just replacing worn clothes.)

But isn't it a bit unreasonable to expect a new player to understand both all the details of that system, discover that (or a similar) strategy, and implement it without making a mess? "How do I deal with all these clothes everywhere?" is a pretty common forum question, after all.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Since clothing always wears out, there's no way to avoid a clothing industry.  I just constantly produce it using the workshop profiles.  All dropped and tattered clothing always makes it to a stockpile eventually in due time.  Everyone ends up with fresh clothes, and the surplus can be traded.  I suppose ownership is just what prevents a dwarf from taking the shirt off another's back? 

To separate new from worn items, I have my clothier's shops set to give to a stockpile that accepts from links only.  Then another stockpile is by the trade depot to take from anywhere, which ends up being all the xxClothesxx the dwarves replaced with fresh ones.  Simply having sufficient extra new clothes seems to be all that's needed for dwarves to abandon their XclothesX.  For a fortress of 130, a single clothier can easily produce more than enough pigtail clothing of every type for everyone, given enough cloth.

Yep, that works except for traded items, items stripped from enemies, and items dropped and scattered by dwarves claiming upgraded clothing. (Remember that dwarves will drop pristine clothing to go claim a higher quality piece, in addition to just replacing worn clothes.)

But isn't it a bit unreasonable to expect a new player to understand both all the details of that system, discover that (or a similar) strategy, and implement it without making a mess? "How do I deal with all these clothes everywhere?" is a pretty common forum question, after all.

You're in danger of just automating the whole game here. You play a fortress, stuff goes wrong, you try a different strategy the next time around. No-one plays a single fortress forever (well, some do, but still...).

The thing to ensure is that there's a logical connection from "why are there clothes everywhere" followed by "I wonder if I can just put them in a stockpile somewhere, or recycle them, or give them away to traders or naked dancers?" to looking at the interface and it being obvious where the options you might try are.

[Pvt. Pirate]

Since clothing always wears out, there's no way to avoid a clothing industry.  I just constantly produce it using the workshop profiles.  All dropped and tattered clothing always makes it to a stockpile eventually in due time.  Everyone ends up with fresh clothes, and the surplus can be traded.  I suppose ownership is just what prevents a dwarf from taking the shirt off another's back? 

To separate new from worn items, I have my clothier's shops set to give to a stockpile that accepts from links only.  Then another stockpile is by the trade depot to take from anywhere, which ends up being all the xxClothesxx the dwarves replaced with fresh ones.  Simply having sufficient extra new clothes seems to be all that's needed for dwarves to abandon their XclothesX.  For a fortress of 130, a single clothier can easily produce more than enough pigtail clothing of every type for everyone, given enough cloth.

Yep, that works except for traded items, items stripped from enemies, and items dropped and scattered by dwarves claiming upgraded clothing. (Remember that dwarves will drop pristine clothing to go claim a higher quality piece, in addition to just replacing worn clothes.)

But isn't it a bit unreasonable to expect a new player to understand both all the details of that system, discover that (or a similar) strategy, and implement it without making a mess? "How do I deal with all these clothes everywhere?" is a pretty common forum question, after all.

You're in danger of just automating the whole game here. You play a fortress, stuff goes wrong, you try a different strategy the next time around. No-one plays a single fortress forever (well, some do, but still...).

The thing to ensure is that there's a logical connection from "why are there clothes everywhere" followed by "I wonder if I can just put them in a stockpile somewhere, or recycle them, or give them away to traders or naked dancers?" to looking at the interface and it being obvious where the options you might try are.

i honestly agree that automation and dumbing down the game wouldn't improve it, but ruin it instead. while a streamlined, more intuitive interface would make dumbing it down unnecessary.
the best examples are
- military management with training schedules and patrols, burrows etc.
- minecart routes
- specialized stockpiles for certain industries

also changing the controls so one doesnt have to wonder if it will now be navigated with WASD, UHKM, cursor keys or 8462 would improve it a lot. (the jobs management screen always gets me with materail selection suddenly being navigated by 8462 although its a full screen on the left)
having the ability to place all furniture in bulk just like constructions (ever had to make a meeting hall with 200 seats and tables?)

[Pillbo]

There no way to strip dwarves of x and XX items, or configure hauling to deal with them in a way that separates new and worn items. One way to fix that would be adding "wear level" to stockpile/hauling settings, analogous to item quality.
[...]
This especially relevant because FPS is the #1 enemy of Dwarf Fortress games, and item count is frequently cited as an FPS reducer.

This suggestion would make a big difference and is in no way a "danger of just automating the whole game". That's not automating at all, it's the opposite, it's more degrees of player control. This would reduce threee things; a bunch of convoluted micromanaging that adds nothing to the game, the use of `autodump destroy`, and FPS problems from not bothering/understanding how to deal with it. Most people don't play because they like to solve irritating problems, they just want an in game way to deal with them.

[therahedwig]

I actually did a suggestion quite a while back for the clothing problem. Because it is a bit more complex than X and XX quality levels; dwarves are also not putting their clothing in the refuse stockpile because they own the item. But yeah, it is a big FPS hog in a large fort, and there's no ingame way to officially deal with it, beyond not making clothes until your dwarves have run out of existing clothes.

Tattered quality levels would still be mighty useful though, and I too cannot see a reason why they should not be allowed. Not necessarily something that would make the life of a noob that much easier, given the actual problem is just a game mechanic that the player has no way of interacting with and yet somehow is their problem anyway.

[wierd]

Even if owned, they can still be dumped, IIRC.

They can also be designated to be sent to a trader, even if owned, IIRC.


Micromanagement is never a good solution, but getting rid of tatty clothing is possible.

[FantasticDorf]

Even if owned, they can still be dumped, IIRC.

They can also be designated to be sent to a trader, even if owned, IIRC.


Micromanagement is never a good solution, but getting rid of tatty clothing is possible.

Most people just have reactions to tear it up back into string again or dump entire bins of it into lava or bridge crushers carefully sorted by quality. It would honestly be better if a cloth took two or more string to make so that diminishing returns would be viable.

[PatrikLundell]

Even if owned, they can still be dumped, IIRC.

They can also be designated to be sent to a trader, even if owned, IIRC.


Micromanagement is never a good solution, but getting rid of tatty clothing is possible.

Most people just have reactions to tear it up back into string again or dump entire bins of it into lava or bridge crushers carefully sorted by quality. It would honestly be better if a cloth took two or more string to make so that diminishing returns would be viable.

I'm not aware of any modded reaction to tear up clothing, and certainly not one used by "most people". Regardless, newbies won't invent such measures. Sure, most long term players are using methods such as magma dumping, atom smashing, and caravan garbage disposal services to get rid of worn clothing, often together with DFHack scripts to strip ownership of old clothing and dumping of it.

The statement about "diminishing returns" doesn't make sense at all to me. When the problem is an excess of old clothes cluttering the fortress, requiring more "string" (which I assume means thread) to make cloth makes production more punishing, but does nothing to deal with the clutter. Reducing the wear rate to reduce clutter will also have the side effect of hitting newbies with the need to produce clothes later, possibly when they thought they'd started to get the hang of things, and the current wear rate of one level per two years doesn't seem unrealistic.

What I believe is needed is an automation of the clothing waste disposal, as I assume most people don't find micro managing of it to be anything but a chore. I'm fine with having to set up the automation, but once set up, dorfs ought to haul off their old garbage to a suitable stockpile (or other means), possibly with the exception of ones with hoarding personality traits. It can be noted that this could be extended to go for trinkets as well, so dorfs could get the trinket acquisition satisfaction without a trinket accumulation mountain in their rooms.

Clothing management also ought to include stockpile options to specify wear and size (to get an in-game way of separating ogre/troll clothing that's of no use to anyone together with the worn one), and the Manager ought to allow wear and size to be taken into consideration when determining how much usable clothing there is as well.

[wierd]

To me a better option would be "Mend garments" reaction added to the clothier.

Consumes 1 string + 1 cloth + one worn cloth item.  Produces new-condition cloth item with previous amenities.

This would have the benefit of preventing "Suffered loss of a masterpiece" thoughts when clothes fall apart, get destroyed, or sold.