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Author Topic: *We need your help to save the noobs!*  (Read 104500 times)

Pvt. Pirate

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #435 on: May 01, 2020, 09:21:47 am »

These ones are only tangentially related to the topic at hand, but maybe the right person reads them.

I do remember being very confused over minor simple things when I started with the game, which just went into the background after a while. DF sorta gets into your head like this. Anyway.

Leather. Butchering a creature produces a skin. A skin is tanned into a piece of leather. A piece of leather is required for any one job. Ergo, both a dog and a sperm whale produce the same amount of sewing material. Which was just... mindbogglingly wrong at the time; you'd think a game that simulates entire civilisations can tell a dog from an elephant, but when it comes to leather caps, it clearly can not.
How to fix this? Treat skin like ore: one item is processed into multiple material items, which are then used in varying amounts to make clothing. Cloth should also conform to the new framework. That is the realistic way. The right way. Cloth should be treated the same as metal for interactions, regardless of whether butchering a creature will produce a stack of skins like with bones (realistic approach, try tanning all those whale bits before they all rot) or a single 'pelt' that will tan into a dozen leather items (quick approach).

Blocks. I saw where the game is coming from by making a stone chunk process into multiple blocks - you can't fit a round boulder into a square hole but after you cut... ... scratch that, it makes no sense now and my brain hurts. What do we have? Making rock into blocks quadruples its volume; making wood into blocks doesn't change it; making metal into blocks divides volume by 3 (by 4 if you count the charcoal). One unit of raw material or a block is required for any job, so block size is a constant... Bloody hell.
Okay... The block item is an abstraction. An inconsistent abstraction, which is even more jarring. We can have individual toenails but can't count our bricks... Okay. First, for the love of Armok, make blocks consistent. Then the issue can be approached from two opposite ways: either make blocks into actual bricks (with multiple being needed for just about anything), or forbid building walls from raw materials (and make raw stone/wood walls into 'Barricades', a variation of Vertical Bar), or maybe even both. Rename wooden blocks into 'Plank's. Masterwork did have the right idea with their chopping block workshop - lumber should require some pre-processing, just not as much as metal.

I can probably name a couple more logic holes, but these ones I still remember from way back then. The game will be easier on the noobs if it consistently makes sense. Let's be honest: all that intrigue and other fancy world-gen stuff may feel like epic world-building, but it's essentially just window dressing for what actually happens on screen - dorfs building things. I just can't appreciate the fluff if the crunch is not solid enough. Neither will others.
the problem of consistency in volume/weight can be named very easily: it defies the laws of thermodynamics.
with the leather you already showed a nice way to fix it.
but for the stone, i'd actually find it more consistent if each tile would yeald atleast a brick and some would yeald a boulder with the skill of the miner slightly improving the chances of getting a boulder.
then make construction of a wall require 4 bricks and we're all set.
some things would still require a boulder - like creation of a statue of a thing of such size.
but one wouldn't require a 2x2x3m boulder to carve a stone ring.

about those moods: so far, it would even appear that a dwarf would request an item you can't get if such doesnt come to your embark, like if they require shells and you don't have any source of such. also it's strange if a dorf refuses to use the "GCS silk thread" if they require "cave spider silk thread".
it also always bugged me to not being able to designate certain kinds of thread or cloth to a hospital and forbid some kinds of thread/cloth for hospital use.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #436 on: May 01, 2020, 01:33:54 pm »

It's not strange in the least that the creature called Giant Cave Spider is considered to be different from the one called Cave Spider (or that Giraffe Men aren't equal to Giraffes). They're different creatures that happen to be derived from a common source, but once generated they're distinct from each other in many ways. The GCS THREAD is more valuable than the cave spider thread, for instance.

Note that specific instances of item categories shouldn't be required unless you've produced it at least once (which still may stuff you, as it might not have been enough, or you may no longer have it). Thus, they should require GCS cloth only if you've produced it, while silk cloth is a basic category.
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Bumber

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #437 on: May 01, 2020, 03:37:30 pm »

but for the stone, i'd actually find it more consistent if each tile would yeald atleast a brick and some would yeald a boulder with the skill of the miner slightly improving the chances of getting a boulder.
The issue is item clutter when digging out areas.
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Evaris

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #438 on: May 01, 2020, 06:10:43 pm »

1.  Merging of menus.  The ability to look at things being spread across multiple keys creates a lot of clutter, when you could have a look menu that then has secondary keys that allow you to look into different parts of what it is you're viewing.  Also, the menus absolutely need mouse support.  (and left clicking to look at something would to me make sense as a default)

2.  As with the above, menus can be renamed and reordered to make more intuitive sense.  So, select build, for example ; you would then see workshops, furnaces, furniture, mechanisms (relabel traps), constructions, etc.  This would make things less confusing for new players.  Move digging into the same menu set, as well as things like smoothing stone under a "stoneworking" submenu.  Even if it means more clicks, it being more organized would make it far more accessible to new players. 

3.  Lack of information.  Looking at something should have an interactions screen, that shows you, for example, if you're looking at livestock, whether it can be milked, sheared, butchered, etc. and list what workshop it can be done at. 

4.  Expanded weaponable / armorable alloys.  This is the point that had me make Orichalcum in the first place, but a number of alloys that one would think a dwarf could use for something, can't be.  For example, you're able to make silver and copper weapons, but not sterling silver weapons.  Brass was historically used in weapons, and is nearly as strong as bronze, being far superior to copper, but dwarves can't use it for arms or armor by default, and sometimes you have a ton of zinc on your map.  Similarly nickel, cupronickel was used historically by the chinese in "white bronze" and is comparable in strength to bronze.  Platinum being an amazing weapon material but you're restricted to using it by default to decorative purposes rather than practical ones even as a siege is in the process of breaking you.  So on and so forth.  The metals you can work with should be expanded to make maps less hit or miss by the roll of dice on the map.

5.  Difficulty options on base world gen that on the easiest setting toggles off megabeasts, werebeasts, the amount of the world covered in evil biomes, etc.  Leaving advanced generation the same, but a "peaceful" lowest difficulty setting that would restrict the generation of any sorts of innate threats to your fortress from afar would go a long way to helping out new players.

6.  Give the expedition leader the abilities of a manager without the need for a desk and the like.  This would more smoothly let players plan things out to be constructed in the beginning of a fort as needed before infrastructure is in place.

7.  Rework of the orders menu into the management screen, to be compiled with other policies in place, such as enforcing mandates so you don't accidentally trade things, or automatically queuing mandated items or not. 

8.  Moving of cutting down trees and gathering plants on the ground to the zones menu, letting you automate keeping paths clear, maintaining a tree farm (perhaps with a submenu of "cut after tree reaches a certain number of z height units), and preventing dwarves from traveling too far from the fort.

9.  Military overhaul.  The entire menu system needs to be reworked - especially scheduling. 

10.  Refuse and corpses should honestly be combined by default under the stockpile system.  Also, dwarves should be less sensitive to the corpses of enemy combatants. 

11.  As others have mentioned, a grazer rework is in order, grazers should be able to wander and find food if they are not in a designated pen / pasture. 

12.  Stairs and ramps need a tutorial at the very least explaining how they function.

13.  Fishing needs to be reworked.  Fish should be less likely to be caught as populations dwindle, an announcement posted when it's reaching such, there should be a zone setting to leave a minimum percentage of stock to reproduce, bodies of water that go off-map should be effectively inexhaustible, (at the very least, if it's a major river or an ocean!) and fish cleaning should be given higher priority than fishing soas not to leave seafood to rot when the dwarf in question has both tasks enabled. 

14.  Cooking all your booze and/or boozable plants by accident is a mistake I made many times when I was a noob.  I'd set it to have booze cooking disabled by default, as well as any food items with both options for cooking or brewing defaulting to having cooking disabled. 

15.  Construction / channeling dwarf AI could be reworked.  Have it run a check to see if building any parts of a construction would get in the way of building other parts in it, then setting up a queue.  This would let us at least put down lengths of walls or designating an area to be channeled out without making it inaccessible.

16.  Pathing optimizations.  Greater multithreading, perhaps a seasonal check of ideal routes for designated tasks, pre-planning wildlife movement on extra threads before they come to map, etc.  I don't know if any of these are already done, but pathing is by far the thing that seems to lead to fps check, and while pathing priority already exists, perhaps having an automated version of it that adjusts every season by default would help optimize the game more, while still allowing players to manually designate preferred routes.  (but also preferably showing players where the automated preferred paths are)

17.  Groundcover like grass and floor fungus shouldn't block access to sand/clay.  Dwarves should be able to dig up tiles to access such - I mean they can already just by placing a dirt road.  Not having to go back to a patch of dirt to build a road over every few seasons would be a good reduction of tedium for experienced players and confusion for new players.

18.  constructions should be more intuitive.  Constructed floors shouldn't block constructed walls, a straightforward way to work around the present system might be perhaps to have the system queue up a deconstruct order immediately alongside the construction order when one is placed in overlap?

19.  Dwarves should not get stuck in trees like cats.  If a dwarf is stuck in a tree with no way down, they should be willing to risk a broken leg jumping down in favor of not starving / dehydrating to death. 

20.  Trees should be knocked down / collapse if a tile is dug out from under them, and should not grow on tiles where there is a tunnel dug beneath them, soas to prevent holes in the ground giving easy access to your fort, and / or at least alerting you to the presence of said hole in the fort.

21.  Announcements need a filter. 

22.  A colony opinions screen that shows things your fortress needs or your dwarves are complaining about would be quite helpful to noobs and those wanting a less tedious experience.

23.  The embark screen needs to be reworked, the just embark haphazardly should be renamed to haphazard embark or randomized embark, to help new players realize they should be planning things out.

24.  Stairs;  Up/down stairs should be able to be designated to dig on the surface.  (leaving down stairs) to make it more intuitive to new players. 

25.  Tattered clothes should either have a stockpile of their own, or go to refuse piles by default. 

26.  Workshops should be able to be assigned wheelbarrows.  This would go a long way to cutting down wait times on stone and the like.

Edit: 27.  Also, bugfixing in general needs to be prioritized.  There are so many long-standing bugs that need to be addressed, some of which go back a decade.  Please, take a good chunk of time to fix a number of them, given many can be game breaking or accelerate FPS death.  Others are just unending sources of frustration. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 06:03:43 pm by Evaris »
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #439 on: May 02, 2020, 06:07:10 am »

on stockpiles, if you combine refuse and corpses, please also make a new stockpile for skins, bones, skulls, shells
those tend to rot away too fast because that's what the refuse stockpile does to them.
my mother has seashells in her home for many years now and they didn't rot. i got a deerbone medaillon and it didn't rot, so why should those rot?
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muldrake

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #440 on: May 02, 2020, 09:14:44 am »

it also always bugged me to not being able to designate certain kinds of thread or cloth to a hospital and forbid some kinds of thread/cloth for hospital use.

The most obvious example would be adamantine thread, which medical dwarves will immediately seize and use for the most minor injuries.  This is why you should hurl medical dwarves into magma.
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Inarius

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #441 on: May 03, 2020, 04:31:40 am »

Some ideas are very good on this list Evaris

16.  Pathing optimizations.  Greater multithreading, perhaps a seasonal check of ideal routes for designated tasks, pre-planning wildlife movement on extra threads before they come to map, etc.  I don't know if any of these are already done, but pathing is by far the thing that seems to lead to fps check, and while pathing priority already exists, perhaps having an automated version of it that adjusts every season by default would help optimize the game more, while still allowing players to manually designate preferred routes.  (but also preferably showing players where the automated preferred paths are)

However, i don't think you can multithread pathing, a lot.
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #442 on: May 03, 2020, 07:22:40 am »

but for the stone, i'd actually find it more consistent if each tile would yeald atleast a brick and some would yeald a boulder with the skill of the miner slightly improving the chances of getting a boulder.
The issue is item clutter when digging out areas.
oh, didn't think about that...
but if each wall needs 4 bricks anyway, it might be used for craftign and building already.
whenever i make a huge surface defense, i need lots of stone for it and after i lay out my plans, i start digging to find out what material i can use for it all.
there's always ways of getting rid of surplus stone.
idea: new type of possible contract with human settlements to supply them with a certain amount of bricks.
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Evaris

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #443 on: May 04, 2020, 04:40:25 pm »

Some ideas are very good on this list Evaris

16.  Pathing optimizations.  Greater multithreading, perhaps a seasonal check of ideal routes for designated tasks, pre-planning wildlife movement on extra threads before they come to map, etc.  I don't know if any of these are already done, but pathing is by far the thing that seems to lead to fps check, and while pathing priority already exists, perhaps having an automated version of it that adjusts every season by default would help optimize the game more, while still allowing players to manually designate preferred routes.  (but also preferably showing players where the automated preferred paths are)

However, i don't think you can multithread pathing, a lot.
I think you could quite a bit.  Operate on the principle of newtonian motion - effectively, pre-plan pathing routes prior to schedule on multiple threads, then have them resolved when they interact on a primary thread, only when they are interacting with other entities on the map from said other entities' pathing or changes in their environment which would cause concern, such as new constructions since their pathing was planned, interaction with dwarves, etc. 

Combine that with animals "learning" from prior pathing attempts that, for example, doors are tightly shut and they can't path out of their room, and we could likely see maps better handle animals being present on map. 

It likely wouldn't work as well for dwarves, as they're constantly needing to deal with updates due to jobs, but anything that reduces the load would at least help, and would mean animals aren't a liability to FPS death as much as they are now. 
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Inarius

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #444 on: May 05, 2020, 06:30:28 am »

Well maybe. But this topic has been already (and many times) raised to Toady.
Why not after all.
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voliol

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #445 on: May 05, 2020, 07:18:51 am »

8.  Moving of cutting down trees and gathering plants on the ground to the zones menu, letting you automate keeping paths clear, maintaining a tree farm (perhaps with a submenu of "cut after tree reaches a certain number of z height units), and preventing dwarves from traveling too far from the fort.

While this is a good idea, it seems to me it would be more difficult to newcomers than what we have now. The designations menu is one of the first they'll learn, due to mining being in there.

Quote
20.  Trees should be knocked down / collapse if a tile is dug out from under them, and should not grow on tiles where there is a tunnel dug beneath them, soas to prevent holes in the ground giving easy access to your fort, and / or at least alerting you to the presence of said hole in the fort.

I agree trees should be allowed to fall without sufficient rooting, but the latter part of this point makes little sense. Not only do RL trees not care whether there is a space some meters below them (how could they?), but it's quite a !fun! emergent future. The new graphics should make these holes more distuingishable to newcomers who normally wouldn't notice the difference between "." and "·".

Quote
23.  The embark screen needs to be reworked, the just embark haphazardly should be renamed to haphazard embark or randomized embark, to help new players realize they should be planning things out.

The "just embark" gives you a decent start unless you've chosen an intentionally difficult embark location. It's a good newcomer option, they shouldn't be reprimanded for not min-maxing, or scared off by the very meaty planned embark menu (regardless of redesign).

Evaris

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #446 on: May 06, 2020, 02:50:02 pm »

8.  Moving of cutting down trees and gathering plants on the ground to the zones menu, letting you automate keeping paths clear, maintaining a tree farm (perhaps with a submenu of "cut after tree reaches a certain number of z height units), and preventing dwarves from traveling too far from the fort.

While this is a good idea, it seems to me it would be more difficult to newcomers than what we have now. The designations menu is one of the first they'll learn, due to mining being in there.

Quote
20.  Trees should be knocked down / collapse if a tile is dug out from under them, and should not grow on tiles where there is a tunnel dug beneath them, soas to prevent holes in the ground giving easy access to your fort, and / or at least alerting you to the presence of said hole in the fort.

I agree trees should be allowed to fall without sufficient rooting, but the latter part of this point makes little sense. Not only do RL trees not care whether there is a space some meters below them (how could they?), but it's quite a !fun! emergent future. The new graphics should make these holes more distuingishable to newcomers who normally wouldn't notice the difference between "." and "·".

Quote
23.  The embark screen needs to be reworked, the just embark haphazardly should be renamed to haphazard embark or randomized embark, to help new players realize they should be planning things out.

The "just embark" gives you a decent start unless you've chosen an intentionally difficult embark location. It's a good newcomer option, they shouldn't be reprimanded for not min-maxing, or scared off by the very meaty planned embark menu (regardless of redesign).

Well, I'd suggest reworking designations completely and changing how the menus work, so my suggestion was in regards to that.  IMO, cutting trees is generally a different activity vs digging and the like, which I would put under a reworked "build" section to be more user friendly in general. 

As for trees caring about a hole beneath them, I mean, they kindof do, and you're not going to get a tree growing past a sapling, generally speaking, unless you've got more than a few inches of dirt. 

On Just Embark, I think having labeled options with descriptions would be better.  Even without outright min-maxing, the just embark option really isn't all that good, in my opinion, and if we were working on a singular default embark profile, it could certainly be improved to be more noob friendly.  Even quick, minor optimizations like trading out meat for garden vegetables which are edible raw in double the amount for the same cost, or bringing along enough poultry for egg production and/or sheep for yarn and milk, bringing along gypsum powder should any dwarves need casts, a stock of lye at the beginning so the dwarves have soap, etc.  Also goblets / mugs so you don't have your starting dwarves complaining about drinking their booze without on day 1.  While we're at it, perhaps the default embark points might be mildly increased to provide such for new players on the steam release with the default profile.  (idk, to 1600 maybe for an even number, and slightly easier than it is now by default?)
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betaking

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #447 on: May 06, 2020, 07:09:08 pm »

Make clothing size easier to know at a glance, for both adventure and fortress mode.
So you don't get confused between a breastplate sized for goblins and a breastplate sized for dwarves.

have a (F)ill function, for soil at the very least, that can allow the filled tile to be set to a 'subterranean' status even if it was exposed to sunlight.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 07:28:23 pm by betaking »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #448 on: May 06, 2020, 08:57:59 pm »

Make clothing size easier to know at a glance, for both adventure and fortress mode.
So you don't get confused between a breastplate sized for goblins and a breastplate sized for dwarves.

have a (F)ill function, for soil at the very least, that can allow the filled tile to be set to a 'subterranean' status even if it was exposed to sunlight.
Looking at a breastplate states that clearly. (And goblins and dwarves are the same size). And then in lists, "large" is too big for you (adventurer) or the main race of your civ (fortress), small is too small.

Need to add that to the stocks menu, but other than that, how would you tell "at a glance"?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« Reply #449 on: May 07, 2020, 03:24:28 am »

Make clothing size easier to know at a glance, for both adventure and fortress mode.
So you don't get confused between a breastplate sized for goblins and a breastplate sized for dwarves.

have a (F)ill function, for soil at the very least, that can allow the filled tile to be set to a 'subterranean' status even if it was exposed to sunlight.
Looking at a breastplate states that clearly. (And goblins and dwarves are the same size). And then in lists, "large" is too big for you (adventurer) or the main race of your civ (fortress), small is too small.

Need to add that to the stocks menu, but other than that, how would you tell "at a glance"?
While Shonai_Dweller is correct on the size issue brought up, the current small/large designations were sufficient before Visitors were added. Now I can't tell if this "Large Troll Fur Loincloth" is human sized, and thus usable by my human citizens, or Troll/Ogre sized, and thus just garbage (animal people sized items are largely irrelevant as far as I've seen, as the chance of getting those as citizens seems to be very low: I've seen less than a dozen visitors). Thus, the size description ought be replaced by race (which gets messy with long named ones, such as two humped camel men). However, that will likely cause some confusion to newbies, as they'd need to learn that goblin and elf size is good enough for dorfs (but they need to learn that anyway). I wouldn't mind of the detailed description of a piece of goblin clothing would mention that it would fit dorfs (e.g. "This is a loincloth made for goblins (usable by dwarves and elves as well)"). If the description modification would be adapted to the current fortress resident races and only mention those it might be kept down to a reasonable level.
It's possible to find the size of an item by looking at the detailed description, but it's very tedious to do that for hundreds of items gathered as a result of a siege cleanup.

While terraforming activities would be nice to have, they're not in the "Save the noobs!" territory.
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