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[feelotraveller]

Those who just play the game (or set the pop cap at a level they're happy with), don't post about it because they don't need to. So you don't hear about them.

Yep, you're right about that.  But there's also those who are so unhappy about it that they quit playing the game - we don't hear from them either.

[cyrohound]

1) A list filled with hundreds of options before a new player ever gets to play is one of the most off-putting things you can do. I quit Dwarf Fortress first time I tried it because the LNP did exactly that.
Next time I tried vanilla. "Create New Wordl" - What could be more simple than that?

2) Please don't dumb down the game, no. It's called challenge. Consult a wiki if you don't understand or don't want to think about puzzles in a puzzle mini game.

3 and 4 sure, but basically that's how the system is supposed to actually works. Run a decent fortress and dwarves will find enough to keep them unstressed. Needs more work though, as you say, you end up checking individual dwarves, at least for the needs system (not that needs lead to tantrums so it's not really that important).

1. The current basic world gen has 6 options. Adding about 2 more to control monster/seige spawns won't break the newbie experience, especially if they have indicative names. "Werebeast spawn rate" is an easier mechanic for new players to grasp than, savagery, for example, just because it's more relevant to the newbie experience. I didn't know what savagery even was until about six months after I started playing, because to my noob eyes, it had little to no effect on my world, and I only learned about it while looking up a world generation tutorial.

2. That doesn't mean get rid of moods or change them ultra significantly. It means get rid of moods asking for stuff that can never, and will never spawn on your map, (Looking at you shells in the desert), fix the fact that certain moods are worded in a way that trips up newbies. Again, the cloth example was my first 3 experiences with moods. The moody dwarves all wanted silk, but all it said was cloth, I could never figure out why my moods wouldn't work until someone on the forums explained it to me. There might be more than one example, but the cloth issue is the only one I encountered. The whole "maybe later, you can have the option to save a moody dwarf that can't complete the artifact", is a side dream and if it happens, it shouldn't be a sure thing, it should be EXPENSIVE, and you should not be able to do it for every moody dwarf.

[Shonai_Dweller]

asking for "shining bars of metal" just confuses new players

It really, really doesn't. Well, maybe if English isn't your first language. But that's a problem for almost everything about Dwarf Fortress.

Cloth types, yes agree with that. Caught me out a couple of times.
Could do with an extra clue. Is there anything else? Rock is rock, bones are bones, gems are gems...

[PatrikLundell]

asking for "shining bars of metal" just confuses new players

It really, really doesn't. Well, maybe if English isn't your first language. But that's a problem for almost everything about Dwarf Fortress.

Cloth types, yes agree with that. Caught me out a couple of times.
Could do with an extra clue. Is there anything else? Rock is rock, bones are bones, gems are gems...

When "shining bars of metal" is satisfied only by the particular metal the dorf is hiddenly thinking of it definitely is confusing on par with cloth.

[Shonai_Dweller]

asking for "shining bars of metal" just confuses new players

It really, really doesn't. Well, maybe if English isn't your first language. But that's a problem for almost everything about Dwarf Fortress.

Cloth types, yes agree with that. Caught me out a couple of times.
Could do with an extra clue. Is there anything else? Rock is rock, bones are bones, gems are gems...

When "shining bars of metal" is satisfied only by the particular metal the dorf is hiddenly thinking of it definitely is confusing on par with cloth.

And that actually happens? Really?
Have I been lucky all this time that the dwarf who wants bars just goes to fetch some bars? Cloth is the only item I've ever noticed being stuck on (presumably because the damn Dwarf's radar has spotted silk webs down in the caverns).

I suppose you're going to tell me that each time a dwarf demanded gems and I didn't have any to hand that I somehow coincidentally picked the right gems of all the different types on the map to mine and satisfy the mood.

[DG]

If you don't already have the needed bars and the dwarf is in a "secretive" strange mood it happens. Often times a look at the individuals preferences will give you a clue, sometimes not. The whole point of the secretive mood and vague demands for materials is to make mood failures more common. Veterans know how to manage it most of the time, newbies not so much. The question is simply "Is it fun for new players to lose dwarves to strange moods in this way?" It's the Losing is Fun^TM philosophy. I think it's one of the better traps in the game. It's a difficulty mechanism unlike most that rely on you not being informed of something important and hoping you won't notice until it's too late.

[Shonai_Dweller]

If you don't already have the needed bars and the dwarf is in a "secretive" strange mood it happens. Often times a look at the individuals preferences will give you a clue, sometimes not. The whole point of the secretive mood and vague demands for materials is to make mood failures more common. Veterans know how to manage it most of the time, newbies not so much. The question is simply "Is it fun for new players to lose dwarves to strange moods in this way?" It's the Losing is Fun^TM philosophy. I think it's one of the better traps in the game. It's a difficulty mechanism unlike most that rely on you not being informed of something important and hoping you won't notice until it's too late.

Wiki needs updating then, poor noobs (heh, like me I guess).
Wiki says:

Metalworkers will demand adamantine wafers if any are available (unforbidden). If not, they will demand a preferred metal if you have smelted any bars of it - fey moods will state this outright, while for secretive moods and possessions you will need to check the dwarf's preferences to see which metal they like. Otherwise, they will select any available metal(s).

See that sounds fun enough. Challenge being a fun thing, especially for "noobs" choosing to play a challenging game. If it's just "random demand for iron bars when there's no iron on the map" then, yeah, that's not fun at all.

[delphonso]

If you don't already have the needed bars and the dwarf is in a "secretive" strange mood it happens. Often times a look at the individuals preferences will give you a clue, sometimes not. The whole point of the secretive mood and vague demands for materials is to make mood failures more common. Veterans know how to manage it most of the time, newbies not so much. The question is simply "Is it fun for new players to lose dwarves to strange moods in this way?" It's the Losing is Fun^TM philosophy. I think it's one of the better traps in the game. It's a difficulty mechanism unlike most that rely on you not being informed of something important and hoping you won't notice until it's too late.

I know I can't remember the first artifact that successfully happened, nor the dwarf who did, but I still remember that feeling of figuring it out and being rewarded with something unique.

[Schmaven]

I fear that the challenging nature of the game would have to almost totally disappear to satisfy all the noobs.  But it is the challenge that mostly keeps me hooked on it.  Does anyone else remember getting stuck in the early days of single player RTS campaigns and needing to reference the guide book?  I found that rewarding to get thoroughly stuck and then find a way through.  Nowadays we have the Wiki.

Maybe the magic release will be able to ramp difficulty up and down with a slider to satisfy both people who want a super easy hard to lose game, and also those who appreciate the difficulty?

Note: there are very valid UI points made in here, but some of the difficult parts of the game that force people to the Wiki seem to get demonized unfairly.

[JEB Davis]

I fear that the challenging nature of the game would have to almost totally disappear to satisfy all the noobs.  But it is the challenge that mostly keeps me hooked on it.  Does anyone else remember getting stuck in the early days of single player RTS campaigns and needing to reference the guide book?  I found that rewarding to get thoroughly stuck and then find a way through.  Nowadays we have the Wiki.

Maybe the magic release will be able to ramp difficulty up and down with a slider to satisfy both people who want a super easy hard to lose game, and also those who appreciate the difficulty?

Note: there are very valid UI points made in here, but some of the difficult parts of the game that force people to the Wiki seem to get demonized unfairly.

+1
I completely agree!

[Shonai_Dweller]

There's great thoughts in this thread, getting to the heart of what "noobs" tend to bounce off, but I think a couple of people here mistakenly think "noobs" are people who don't like hard games. As opposed to those who are simply choosing to play a pixel-art, indie "roguelike" with Dwarf Fortress' reputation for the first time. UI might put people off playing right now, ASCII graphics maybe, the inevitability of werebeast attacks far too early, bit of a stretch but OK, that's already been nerfed, lack of tutorial, perhaps. But "challenge"?

I fail a strange mood, next time I don't. I fail to block the light aquifer, next time I don't, I fail to build a drawbridge and get my dwarves killed by a ravenous undead horde, next time I don't. That's called a fun game. Remember Losing is Fun? So long as you can do better next time and it's not just totally random stuff, it's fun.

(But please keep the "embark-eaten by alligators" thing, because that's beyond unfair to the point of hilarity and a fun story to share online. And you haven't put in much effort at that stage).

[delphonso]

Couldn't agree more.

The target here remains to find small improvements or clearer instructions to make the game more approachable to new players, rather than overhaul aspects of the game to make it less annoying/less difficult for all players. It's tough, as many of us are veteran players, to get a good grasp of what people bounce off of actually. The few people who bounce and stick around probably aren't representative of the huge number of people who know about the game but never tackle it (as DF is at least somewhat famous internet-wide.)

Perhaps we should recommend the game a bit aggressively to our friends and figure out why they won't play, or what they found overwhelming. I'm actually going to ask a few people now, who I know looked at it, but never really played.

[Inarius]

Military management UI & old cloth (and trash, in general) management , on top of all, are top priority. Stress also, of course, but i think it's already processed.

[Bumber]

Stress also, of course, but i think it's already processed.

My dwarves are permanently tantruming/depressed due to goblin corpses. My skilled dwarves are sitting in prison (which at least keeps them from starting fights.) Every time a dwarf starts a fist fight, there's a risk I'll have to save-scum due to loyalty cascade. If it doesn't, people still end up with a long stay in the hospital. Productivity and FPS have slowed to a crawl, so I can't get anyone to dump the corpses into the magma pit.

I'd say there's still a bit more tweaking to be done.

[Inarius]

I meant that Toady is already working on it know the problem and will try (at least) to correct it.
I mean : it's not necessary to write it here, he is probably already aware of the issue.
 Sorry if it wasn't clear enough :/