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[NordicNooob]

I'm midway through my longest-running and happiest fort ever (I've had two slightly stressed dwarves ever, and am hovering at 7/8th's of the fortress being -100k stress, mostly because some dwarves die and get replaced by normal stress dwarves), and have some new observations on what exactly is the cause of all this. (Do note that this fort has had basically nothing but down time and me doing moderate micromanagement at stress)


Summary:

Personality change needs fixing (less extreme change for less extreme incidents), give weather acclimation so aboveground forts aren't impossible, don't worry about un-meetable focus needs, and of course, corpse thought stacking.

Causes:
1. The surface. I get it, dwarves don't like vomiting (who does!) from the sun, rain sucks, and seeing standing trees is downright offensive.
2. Sentient corpses. Still. Corpse stockpiles are useless due to how bad they are for stress, and it's just another trap for newbies to fall in, since they're supposed to be the actual way of disposing of these kinds of things but are actually not at all how you should do it unless you want your fort to go insane. Potential solutions to this are all well elaborated. I'm partial to the "corpse thought stacking" solution (which would also make corpse stockpiles viable again) rather than another nerf to the power of corpse thoughts.
3. Personality change. The surface can generate enough bad thoughts on its own, as can sentient corpse. But the real killer is personality change. Sometimes it'll make a dwarf immune to stress, but just as often it'll make them in a constant state of internal rage. This might technically be close to net stress zero, but nobody cares if a dwarf is doing "just fine" or "super uber happy because I'm immune to stress." The problem is that for every dwarf who wasn't a problem before and is now definitely not a problem there's one that wasn't a problem and is now absolutely going to go insane unless you pamper them in a sealed room, and even then not eating prepared fly brain will drive them over the edge. Personality change absolutely needs to be fixed: a dwarf with an insufferable personality every now and then as a rare migrant is fine, but the occasional miasma incident and having to use the surface for anything is basically executing a dwarf or two every time you do it in a bigger fort. Minor incidents should have smaller ranges for their changed attributes (so a dwarf can't go from impervious to the effects of stress to a nervous wreck or vice versa), and major incidents (loss of loved ones, permanent major injury, all that life altering stuff) should be the only things that can ruin a dwarf.

Stopping stress:
1. Avoid the causes. Duh. Automate siege disposal and just abandon the surface. I have yet to fight a siege in this fort mostly due to lack of methods, and I've avoided the surface entirely. This is something that needs to go. The surface can't be something you have to abandon just to keep your dwarves happy. I'd love to see acclimation to the weather be something a dwarf can get (or already have based off personality and beliefs), much like they can become desensitized to death.
2. Little happy thoughts. Offtime, offtime, offtime! This is an intended mechanic working as intended (least, since socializing was fixed). Taverns, temples, libraries, and guildhalls are all great ways of reducing fortwide stress, long as everybody has time to use them.
3. Big happy thoughts. Personality change is busted. Use it to your advantage. Birthing children and gaining siblings are extremely useful in making dwarves less prone to stress. I wouldn't call it overpowered as most forts aren't long-term, and also since most of the personality changes don't affect stress a ton, but it's still a powerful tool in the arsenal of anybody looking for a happy fort. When a dwarf has 10 siblings all born in the fort, you can bet they've got at least 1 or 2 changes that make them less susceptible to stress somehow.
4. Daily happy thoughts. Stuff that happens without your intervention is what keeps the hardier dwarves going, even in a hellish fort. Drinking, sleeping in a good room, dining in a legendary dining hall, all that. Not really anything you can do about this one. If your fort's residents aren't getting these thoughts, you sort of deserve to have your fort unhappy.

Things that aren't a problem:
1. Focus. Unmet needs aren't an issue in my opinion. Being a bit unhappy because you haven't had family time is fine, even for dwarves who don't have family. That's something that would realistically be entirely reasonable. If your literal life goal is raising a family and you constantly yearn for love or whatever, then obviously yes, you're gonna be lonely if you don't have a family. A few of them (like wanting foods that they've never tried before) are a bit silly, but still pass as reasonable complaints most of the time. It can be handwaved as "hey this dwarf heard of a great dish from their mom/dad, and really wants to try it," even for dwarves born in the fort. And they aren't typically problems for overall stress. It's a reminder that you can't make everybody perfectly happy, that there's at least a little bit of autonomy in these dwarves and they're not perfectly content being your slaves as long as you give them their basic needs and a bunch of zones to chill in. From a gameplay perspective it's an issue, but from a simulation perspective I think it's interesting flavor.
2. Military dwarves. Military training is quite powerful for alleviating stress, simple as that. I have three soldiers go insane ever (as a player who likes military a lot), even through 44.10-12 being my newbie days, and those were from personality change reasons more than the "seeing a lot of bodies" reasons, since they were accustomed to death by the time their stress started increasing. Soldiers going insane from invader corpses isn't the issue, it's the civilians doing cleanup.

Much of the stress system is pretty tough on new players, as while the needs/focus stuff gives you a decent idea of "hey, I should make this for my dwarves" there's still a lot of gimmicks involved in not having your fort go insane. It's entirely possible to have a happy fort as it stands, which is where I can see players who say stress isn't that broken are coming from, except they're wrong, because alleviating stress issues currently involve ignoring a good portion of the game (abandoning surface, not using corpse stockpiles), making game-y choices rather than ones that would be reasonable (who knew non-stop military training would be good for dwarves who are unhappy from being worked to death? also, atom smashing is basically required), and just in general doing that gimmicky stuff to get by. My current fort is happy because I'm doing all of those gimmicks. My two stressed dwarves happened during, news flash, a time where everybody was seeing sentient corpses. I've otherwise been lucky to only have semi-fragile personalities from inevitable incidents over the long term, and most of those have died from other reasons over the years.

Thank you for coming to my DWARF talk.

[PatrikLundell]

The claims that unmet needs isn't a problem doesn't match my experience.
Two cases seen:

0.44.12 fairly long term fortress: One of the starting 7 (carpenter, I think) gradually sunk into depression over the years, but never permanently due to being immune (having mooded), and ended up at 100000 stress. The bugger had a red need for trinkets, but steadfastly refused to pick any up when hauling them. Eventually I managed to organize the making of trinkets out of a favored stone for hauling, and those were actually picked up. The stress gradually decreased to around 70000 after that (at which time the fortress suddenly was killed by equipment corruption, so I wasn't able to see the full recovery).

Current fortress (0.47.04): At year 11 (of the fortress) one of the friends of a miner (typically the happiest dorfs in my fortresses, as engraving is one of their tasks) died due to deadly evil rain, and the miner suffered flashbacks for many years after that (but they've seen to have ended). One day, several years later, I caught the miner at 10100 stress (red arrow, and check with Dwarf Therapist) while caught in the rain (safely building a roof for the deadly rain, while exposed to the normal variety), and immediately changed the tasks (no outdoors work, no hauling except trade goods), as well as setting in therapy (a lot of engraving, plus regular crafting sessions). This dorf was kept at around 0 stress for a decade through regular therapy, but without would accumulate around 5000 stress per year (while doing the work that kept the other miner ecstatic). All needs were met at least yearly, except "be with family", as void dorfs don't have family, and there wasn't any male available for marriage (A recruited poet was far too young. A decade or two later he came into range, nuptial encouragement treatment resulted in kindred spirit status, but wouldn't progress further despite about half a year of treatment, plus a later attempt a few years later). After many additional years of continued regular therapy, the miner was still kept in check, when there suddenly was a message that she and the poet had finally married. From then on, she's slowly but steadily on the path towards heavenly bliss, despite being back to regular work (including vomit comet outdoors work).

[Shonai_Dweller]

The claims that unmet needs isn't a problem doesn't match my experience.
Two cases seen:

0.44.12 fairly long term fortress: One of the starting 7 (carpenter, I think) gradually sunk into depression over the years, but never permanently due to being immune (having mooded), and ended up at 100000 stress. The bugger had a red need for trinkets, but steadfastly refused to pick any up when hauling them. Eventually I managed to organize the making of trinkets out of a favored stone for hauling, and those were actually picked up. The stress gradually decreased to around 70000 after that (at which time the fortress suddenly was killed by equipment corruption, so I wasn't able to see the full recovery).

What was actually causing the stress to this first dwarf?
You cured her of stress by picking up trinkets, there's a happy thought related to picking up new stuff. Happy thoughts cure stress (usually not quickly enough, but whatever). Yes, it met her needs too, and yes there's almost certainly a correlation (Dwarf who likes stuff needs new stuff. Dwarf who likes stuff is extra happy when getting new stuff), but you see how this is not the same thing mechanically as "Dwarf is focused therefore dwarf stress is reduced", right?

[Moeteru]

I just saw the Reddit stress thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/hjt112/i_think_ive_figured_out_the_stress_spiral_thoughts/

That's really interesting and explains a lot of the behaviour people have reported.
Is there any way to view dwarves' memory slots using DFhack or other utilities?

[expertnoob]

As I promised I returned 1 week after my final post to answer those that replied to me. I believe I have answered all that seem to be replying to my post. Farewell, and I hope you all enjoy yourselves.

@PatrickLundell: I agree that saving every dwarf should not be possible. As a player goal however, it should be something we can strive for and if willing to spend a lot of effort to do, be possible. (meaning avoiding all conflict, not playing around with magma, etc.). Furthermore expulsion based on losing the DNA lottery is still inhumane, no matter how much worse others can be.

I like your idea of stressed out dwarves would apply for behaviour that saves them. Point is that as soon as you hit 'stressed' there is no way back. With what we know I do not see how your solution would 'weed out the most stupid RNG combinations.' I am very happy to hear that we are aligned in our goals however, even if I do not understand how your solution would lead to the goal.

@muldrake Sanctuary or sanatorium, or monastary will all work for me. I agree that there not many dwarves, only the ones that get a low stess_vulnarability score are unsalvageable. Getting the few bad apples out of the batch however, creates a lot of micromanagement, because you have to check them all.

@Moeteru: Having the dwarfs initiate it, is indeed even better. I do believe it would requite a lot more coding, but as a player I would love that.

I agree that the system for change I propose could be incorporated into the justice and/or temple structure and that would be awesome. I believe that that would take care of the problem without players understanding the problem (because you usually build temples way before tantrumming can occur timelinewise), but I would love the solution, because it would indeed solve the problem.

Your idea of snapping in more interesting ways was something I was toying with as well. Point is that it would require a lot more coding, because as far as I can see the tantrumming system was built a long time ago. I friggin love the idea though.

"Honestly though, I don't mind what system gets implemented as long as the player feels like they're in control and can make meaningful choices which affect the happiness of their dwarves. Even a very gamey system would be an improvement." I so agree with you here, that I had to quote it. This^

@FantasticDwarf: replacing the problem of being Mengele on the train platform, by giving the player to become a worse human being by creating slaves of your own dwarves, does not appeal to me.

@MortStroodle: I agree, but Toadyone as explicitely stated that he didn't want to include gamey elements like that. It makes his job a lot harder, so I respect that decision. I do agree that a way to show the player that it works or does not work, could change the perception of the player.

@shonai_dweller: I don't know if you were actually talking about Doran, but in her case it was a miasma (my first one, I had put my kitchen in a stockroom a lot of dwarves travelled through) and several deaths that kept haunting her. I deleted Dwarf fortress so I cannot go back to check, but it was the memories in combination with her losing the DNA lottery that made her unsalvageable.

[Shonai_Dweller]

@shonai_dweller: I don't know if you were actually talking about Doran, but in her case it was a miasma (my first one, I had put my kitchen in a stockroom a lot of dwarves travelled through) and several deaths that kept haunting her. I deleted Dwarf fortress so I cannot go back to check, but it was the memories in combination with her losing the DNA lottery that made her unsalvageable.

Ah, sorry, was a reply to Patrik. Just annoying to edit long posts on a phone. Will edit properly when I get back home. This post too...

[PatrikLundell]

The claims that unmet needs isn't a problem doesn't match my experience.
Two cases seen:

0.44.12 fairly long term fortress: One of the starting 7 (carpenter, I think) gradually sunk into depression over the years, but never permanently due to being immune (having mooded), and ended up at 100000 stress. The bugger had a red need for trinkets, but steadfastly refused to pick any up when hauling them. Eventually I managed to organize the making of trinkets out of a favored stone for hauling, and those were actually picked up. The stress gradually decreased to around 70000 after that (at which time the fortress suddenly was killed by equipment corruption, so I wasn't able to see the full recovery).

What was actually causing the stress to this first dwarf?
You cured her of stress by picking up trinkets, there's a happy thought related to picking up new stuff. Happy thoughts cure stress (usually not quickly enough, but whatever). Yes, it met her needs too, and yes there's almost certainly a correlation (Dwarf who likes stuff needs new stuff. Dwarf who likes stuff is extra happy when getting new stuff), but you see how this is not the same thing mechanically as "Dwarf is focused therefore dwarf stress is reduced", right?

I don't remember what was causing the first dorf to slide (the game crashed 1½ years ago), but I don't think it was any one event (although it may well be the bugger that was pining badly for excitement and then went into shock when that excitement, against all reasonable expectations, of course, turned into a gobbo corpse). However, what I'm saying is that chronically unmet needs produce a constant stress pressure (dwelling on not getting any shinies * a bazillion, over time), so it's probably not the need itself, but the effects of it being unmet (repeated bad thoughts), which doesn't affect the outcome (but possibly Toady & Threetoe's evaluation of what to do). Meeting the bad need provides the benefit both of a positive thought (unless the bugger was ambivalent about getting new clothes [not the case here]), as well as interrupting the stream of bad thoughts (repeated dwelling on the unmet need). In most cases dorfs can handle one or even two impossible needs [like eating fairy brain and drinking bumblebee mead], but it's still a drain, and some can't handle even a small constant drain.

There's probably a need for a spring like functionality such that the further away dorfs are from their normal "base" state (personality based) the higher the pressure to go further away should be (or the weight of the events pushing it further would have to higher), and the higher force pulling back would become (until it snaps into a new relation that may or may not be recoverable).

Edit: It should also be noted that these examples are ones where the decline is slow but unstoppable (without access to the right medicine or active therapy). The more common case is the dorf that has a red flag, taken off stressful work, and becomes a danger to himself or the fortress 1-2 months later. There's probably nothing that can be done about those cases with the current system (like the one that racked up 500 stress from finishing a preferred drink to finishing yelling at the manager (the next job, as usual), with no displayed thoughts indicating why the stress increased (and not going anywhere stressful to interrupt the manager either).

[muldrake]

I've noticed that simply having a number showing the exact numeric stress value of each dwarf like in dfhack makes dwarven stress management far less of a headache. It's impossible to tell if your current stress strategy is working for some particular dwarf when the only information you get on their condition is these huge bins of "Stressed", "Haggard", or "Harrowed". By the time you learn that a stressed dwarf's condition is getting worse, they've already hit haggard and it's too late to prevent tantrums. Being able to see a dwarf's stress level slowly increase or decrease lets me know if my strategy is working or if I need to get that dwarf doing something else.

I immediately start attacking stress when it's positive, at all, for any reason.  And if my efforts do not actually start lowering stress, bye bye dwarf.  It makes me feel like a real jerk, though.

Seriously, though, give most dwarves a smoothed, engraved bedroom with a weapon rack of a substance they love, their own personal shrine to their god, etc. etc. and they're really really super happy with negative stress in the tens of thousands.

[FantasticDorf]

:
Though on a off-chance, it feels like a lot of deaths may have been preventable by a non-lethal way of taking them out of the game to be transferred to someone's labor camp or just some sort of capital prison/private royal menangerie for giants and such. Its a pity the bug that releases them is not fixed.

Bug? Dwarven ethics does not allow for slavery, and so you can't sell sapients. If dorfs would refuse to move containers containing things that cannot get sold you'd get even more problem with bins, so either "items" that cannot be sold are removed or the dorfs would refuse to move containers containing goods that cannot be sold.

@FantasticDwarf: replacing the problem of being Mengele on the train platform, by giving the player to become a worse human being by creating slaves of your own dwarves, does not appeal to me.

Sorry for leaving you hanging, this 'bug' persisted before the implementation of ethics (well detailed in df's social history of webcomics and memes) where any sort of reasonable reproach to get rid of any intelligent creature in a cage would backfire spectacularly. Though saying that, merchants can still import them to your fortress fine in modded settings.

And to @expertnoob , Dwarves in the setting of a fortress may not always agree with this, but if you were playing in a Dwarf-Prison as per the point of gameplay scenarios that Toady has discussed and only recieved your free shipment of new prisoners inside cages this alleviates a lot of the questions of where they are coming from and going. There will also be the case that eventually we will not always be playing dwarves, even if we shift over to humans who are entirely variable in their approach they may have a different take of cultural understanding in their 'forts' with slaves around doing menial jobs either born into the role or captured after warring.

• I can't recollect if i mentioned it before, but personalities are universally timid to violence, which is sort of a failing of the psychology to project on how people (i wont say specifically dwarves) view things, as some of the more extreme facets (extremely cruel for instance) end up extremely positively receptive to mundane violence (beatings, fistfights, sparring) but harrowed by anything slightly more than that and its straight back to coddling emotionally fragile dwarves again.

[NordicNooob]

The claims that unmet needs isn't a problem doesn't match my experience.
Two cases seen:

0.44.12 fairly long term fortress: One of the starting 7 (carpenter, I think) gradually sunk into depression over the years, but never permanently due to being immune (having mooded), and ended up at 100000 stress. The bugger had a red need for trinkets, but steadfastly refused to pick any up when hauling them. Eventually I managed to organize the making of trinkets out of a favored stone for hauling, and those were actually picked up. The stress gradually decreased to around 70000 after that (at which time the fortress suddenly was killed by equipment corruption, so I wasn't able to see the full recovery).

Current fortress (0.47.04): At year 11 (of the fortress) one of the friends of a miner (typically the happiest dorfs in my fortresses, as engraving is one of their tasks) died due to deadly evil rain, and the miner suffered flashbacks for many years after that (but they've seen to have ended). One day, several years later, I caught the miner at 10100 stress (red arrow, and check with Dwarf Therapist) while caught in the rain (safely building a roof for the deadly rain, while exposed to the normal variety), and immediately changed the tasks (no outdoors work, no hauling except trade goods), as well as setting in therapy (a lot of engraving, plus regular crafting sessions). This dorf was kept at around 0 stress for a decade through regular therapy, but without would accumulate around 5000 stress per year (while doing the work that kept the other miner ecstatic). All needs were met at least yearly, except "be with family", as void dorfs don't have family, and there wasn't any male available for marriage (A recruited poet was far too young. A decade or two later he came into range, nuptial encouragement treatment resulted in kindred spirit status, but wouldn't progress further despite about half a year of treatment, plus a later attempt a few years later). After many additional years of continued regular therapy, the miner was still kept in check, when there suddenly was a message that she and the poet had finally married. From then on, she's slowly but steadily on the path towards heavenly bliss, despite being back to regular work (including vomit comet outdoors work).

Those all sounds like clear cut cases of personality change (or the rarer awful starting personalities). Unmet needs should never be able to drive a dwarf insane as long as you're meeting a few of them, which is as simple as having a tavern and temple (and in older forts a library and guildhall). Unmet needs can drive dwarves with crappy personalities down, hence me saying that personality change is the issue, not unmet needs. Especially since you had a miner in a worse situation that was doing better, that points to your dwarf just not being able to handle stress well.

[muldrake]

• I can't recollect if i mentioned it before, but personalities are universally timid to violence, which is sort of a failing of the psychology to project on how people (i wont say specifically dwarves) view things, as some of the more extreme facets (extremely cruel for instance) end up extremely positively receptive to mundane violence (beatings, fistfights, sparring) but harrowed by anything slightly more than that and its straight back to coddling emotionally fragile dwarves again.

There's the occasional dwarf who seems to really like getting in fistfights.  I haven't figured out a way to use this without all the other dwarves who do not like fistfights suffering from it.

[Shonai_Dweller]

• I can't recollect if i mentioned it before, but personalities are universally timid to violence, which is sort of a failing of the psychology to project on how people (i wont say specifically dwarves) view things, as some of the more extreme facets (extremely cruel for instance) end up extremely positively receptive to mundane violence (beatings, fistfights, sparring) but harrowed by anything slightly more than that and its straight back to coddling emotionally fragile dwarves again.

There's the occasional dwarf who seems to really like getting in fistfights.  I haven't figured out a way to use this without all the other dwarves who do not like fistfights suffering from it.

Make two taverns, have one accept visitors and put it somewhere way out of the way so no citizen dorfs want to go there. Burrow your fistfight loving dwarf in there from time to time.

[muldrake]

Also what is the mechanic where most dwarves seem to benefit immensely from being in the military?  Because that's something I always do now, put everyone in the military and just watch stress skyrocket down to huge negative amounts.

I schedule so a couple squads are always training but most aren't.

There are always a couple dwarves who do not benefit and I take them out.  Is it just the stress relief from boosting skills?  I'm not sure but it has huge benefits and on top of that you have an entire fort full of military dwarves who can kill nearly anything even with crummy weapons.

[delphonso]

That's them benefitting from Discipline (also, probably beneifitting from getting martial practice thoughts, which is oft ignored source of minor stress)

[muldrake]

That's them benefitting from Discipline (also, probably beneifitting from getting martial practice thoughts, which is oft ignored source of minor stress)

I think it's a number of things and military practice bundles a bunch of beneficial activities together.  It has both negative stress effects such as both boosting resistance to stress from common things (like massacres) and just being more resistant to stress in general (from discipline), practicing skills for martial thoughts, and since the military gets the highest quality metal and items as weapons, there's probably a benefit from that, too.  And then there are incidental effects like mostly being indoors, but going outside often enough to deal with nuisances they don't get cave-adapted as often.

You'd really have to micromanage to get all these things together without being in the military.

I seem to get nearly the same benefits from half-on half-off military time, whether it's six months, three months, or on a month off a month.

It still doesn't seem to help the now fairly rare "hopeless" dwarves who go nuts no matter what.  Those seem to be at about 1% with another 10% or so susceptible to stress but able to be controlled so long as things don't get genuinely grim, and then there are the absurdly happy dwarves who can be walking around in a fort full of dead rotting bodies of their friends and family whistling a happy tune and just not caring.