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[snowyscales]

what would be the validity of an above-ground fortress made entirely of crystal glass, considering the low spawn of rock crystals?

[Fleeting Frames]

Rough crystals are a gem that can appear anywhere, and rough gems outside of raw glass cannot be brought from caravans, and I assume raiding won't net any either. This means you can get them only by digging, either at your embark, or a second embark.


I once optimized an 1x1x~14 stone z embark for mostly maximum rock crystals, and maxed out around 50. But even on 100ish mineral scarcity, the median gem amount seems to be about five times less.

An above-ground fortress....Lets imagine something small, like a depot (stairs under depot via deconstruction trick) with double-thick walls and just one archery outpost:

Code: [Select]

▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
▒,,,,,,,,,▒
▒,▒▒▒▒▒▒▒,▒
▒,▒DDDDD▒,▒
▒,▒DDDDD▒,▒
▒,▒DDDDD▒,▒
▒,▒DDDDD▒,▒
▒,▒DDDDD▒,▒
▒,▒▒BBB▒▒,▒
▒,,▒BBB▒X,▒
▒▒▒▒BBB▒▒▒▒

z1
xxxxxxxxxxx
x+++++++++x
x+xxxxxxx+x
x+x+++++x+x
x+x+++++x+x
x+x+++++x+x
x+x+++++x+x
x+x+++++x+x
x+xx+++╬╬╬x
x++x...╬>╬x
xxxx...╬╬╬x

That's XXFortressXX is going to cost you at least 125 blocks of crystal glass, assuming you use only one with bridge and depot materials.

I.e. it'd take between 35 and 178 stone embark tile z-levels, even when you max out minerals and try.

That's a lot of mining. With correct exploratory mining pattern, you can minimize it. Rock crystals seem to have at least two adjacent crystals in a clusters on a quick glance, so the cheapest would be diagonal ramps with gaps, assuming you have a good macro for it and don't waste much on startpoint - call it 1/16 of tiles being designated to dig. Not trivial, but can be done.

That's still a lot of tiles; 144 per z-level. So between 5040 and 25632 tiles.

For scale, it'd yield you between 3 and 17 legendary miners, and could nearly fit 42-212 11x11 rooms.

For a XXFortressXX.

Spoiler: "There might be another method/exploit deep below" (click to show/hide)

Slade experiments back in DF2012 era showed few interesting behaviours:

One was that if you have misaligned map block, and paved it with a material, then caused a cave-in, you could get a layer based on the top visible material (so, what you paved it with). Normal stone materials, same materials, but using exotic things like wood one could yield gems.

Not every fortress can cave in bottomless pits, even then.

But with a right wood or soap material, and if it still works, you could get <2292 additional tiles of rock crystals per embark tile. (If you manage to figure out crystal glass, even better,  but the memory values make me think that might be not possible.)

Since a grand above-ground fortress uses blocks in five digits, this might be only way to get required amount of crystal glass quickly enough.

You'll still probably have to defeat hell several times before you can even begin construction.

Both of those method have problems, however. So I'd want to embark on lot of AI fortresses for a look first - specifically, looking whether they built their fortress using rock crystals or something, since ores are valid candidate. I'm doubtful whether that'd work, but if gemstone or glass walls can happen it might take you looking at 150ish? AI fortresses to find one that matches a given material. If this works, this would yield you enough to build a small keep.

Oh, and good luck with getting 80 moods for crystal glass beds. Even with save-scumming, going to take many in-game decades.

Overall, crystal glass might very well be most player-expensive material in game, even beyond hidden fun stuff.

[snowyscales]

it's a pity my ground to sky-ceiling tower of crystal glass is unfeasible, so i will grudgingly use clear glass instead.

[feelotraveller]

rough gems outside of raw glass cannot be brought from caravans

Is there no way to hack the list of potential cavavan trade goods to get them to appear?

It's an honest question - even if trading for a sufficient amount might take a lot of time, embark points could be spent...

[PatrikLundell]

Looking at the data structures, it might be possible to add it to df.global.world.entities [X].resources.misc_mat.others, once you've found the mat_type/mat_index pair for it. Note that this is speculation only: I haven't tried to do so.

[Loci]

Is there no way to hack the list of potential cavavan trade goods to get them to appear?

What would be the point? There's no practical advantage to crystal glass construction. The only reasons to bother are the challenge and bragging rights, and modding the game to make it easier compromises both. It's like the difference between a "skyfort" and a "floating fortress with cave-ins disabled".

[feelotraveller]

Is there no way to hack the list of potential cavavan trade goods to get them to appear?

What would be the point?

Huh, why not?  You need to lighten up, it's hardly like df is a competitive game where leadership boards are fiercely contested (or even exist).

I asked because a) the op was potentially interested in a mega-project using crystal glass - you can ask them yourself why, but the answer is probably just 'shit and giggles' and b) like fleeting frames it has previously occured to me that the low availability of rock crystal limits the ability to produce large quantities of crystal glass. 

As for my own interest it is mere curiosity in the viability of bypassing the limit (through modding) - I've no real desire to do it personally.  Sheesh if I wanted an overvalued monument to bling embarking with a bunch of kaolinite for a porcelain tower would give as much in dwarfbucks (and be somewhat easier).

[Fleeting Frames]

That resource list is missing .all between entities and [X]. Also, I think you need to change the parent entity, not the current fortress entity, since caravans come from the former.

But as the only "rough gem" the caravan brings you is raw glass, I'm thinking that it shouldn't go in others but in .glass instead. Though this might have the side-effect of strange moods using rock crystals sometimes perhaps, and any other glass caravan goods also being available in it.

Haven't tested though so no promises. But rock crystal mat type-index pair is 0 and 90, at least in one of my graphics-packed saves.

E: Alternatively, I suppose you could insert crystal glass 5/-1 into stone materials, and maybe embark with boulders of it, then ask caravans for boulders and blocks - this might be better because caravans don't bring exactly lot of a given good, and you could make crystal glass querns and slabs.

[Sanctume]

The last time I create item rock crystals, my glassmaker complained it does not exists.