Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[NikoKun]

I was just dealing with a large invasion force attacking my fort, in a somewhat lazy way, by making them walk down a long hallway with lots and lots of cage traps.. And as the front of the army was being captured up by the first sets of cages, and the rest moved past the get captured by the cages further down the hall, a thought occurred to me.. Why aren't these Goblins freeing their caged buddies as they walk by them? Shouldn't cages like these be one of the least effective measures against a large invasion of (somewhat)-intelligent creatures? lol Maybe only certain members of their force would have the ability to figure out a cage's lock based on their skills/intelligence, and only from the outside, or maybe only certain creatures are able to break them based on material strengths, but either way it just seems odd that they totally ignore their brethren once they've been caged, and proceed to walk right into the next cage. And it would make sense that it would require another member of their group to help them, in order to escape.. Especially since our dwarves can do it, freeing captured prisoners while out on raids..

IMO, a change like this would balance out how over-powered cage traps are, making them less effective against groups/intelligent invasions (which would maybe make other traps more useful in those cases).. And while cages would still be useful for isolated numbers or individual monsters, this might make us choose more strategically, rather than just falling back on cages. heh

[Atarlost]

If cages could be broken out of that would make large animal taming much harder.  A lot of stuff is already rare.  If you had to have bronze or iron or steel cages to catch them it would be prohibitive to set enough cages on some maps. 

Civilized invaders letting their squadmates out of cage traps would be fine.  The real need that is uniquely filled by cage traps is the live capture of animals. 

[NikoKun]

If cages could be broken out of that would make large animal taming much harder.  A lot of stuff is already rare.  If you had to have bronze or iron or steel cages to catch them it would be prohibitive to set enough cages on some maps. 

Civilized invaders letting their squadmates out of cage traps would be fine.  The real need that is uniquely filled by cage traps is the live capture of animals.

Ya, obviously cages shouldn't be broken out of.. That's why I was focusing more on intelligent/civilized invaders letting their "squadmates" out. heh That just makes sense to me. You're right, it probably would be more trouble than it's worth, to set strength limits on different materials vs different size monsters, and the game doesn't bother with that sorta thing for any other construction, so why introduce another layer of complexity. Plus ya, that would start getting a bit too prohibitive depending on what resources you have available.
But if we're just talking about intelligent beings letting their friends out of a cage, from the outside, I think that could give another strategic consideration to what kind of traps you setup vs what enemies. heh I just don't like the temptation to always fall back on cage-traps to stop everything, even an overwhelming invasion.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Cages are a placeholder. Albeit a very long term one. There's a whole arc dedicated to building devious traps (moving fortress parts) . Which is when cages are next scheduled to be replaced. But there's two major multiple-release (probably) development arcs (and Steam prep) to come before then so for next several years your only choice is to not use them (or mod them out to avoid temptation).

[NikoKun]

Cages are a placeholder. Albeit a very long term one. There's a whole arc dedicated to building devious traps (moving fortress parts) . Which is when cages are next scheduled to be replaced. But there's two major multiple-release (probably) development arcs (and Steam prep) to come before then so for next several years your only choice is to not use them (or mod them out to avoid temptation).

Interesting.. Thanks for the info.. I hope they don't end up removing them entirely, just nerfing them in ways similar to what's been suggested here.. Based on what you're saying, maybe cages should be material-dependent, so wooden ones don't work against things strong enough to break them, and top-tier monsters would require strong metals. lol
Of course, I know things like this won't be added any time soon, I can wait, I just hadn't seen anyone discuss these aspects of cages anywhere yet.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Cages are a placeholder. Albeit a very long term one. There's a whole arc dedicated to building devious traps (moving fortress parts) . Which is when cages are next scheduled to be replaced. But there's two major multiple-release (probably) development arcs (and Steam prep) to come before then so for next several years your only choice is to not use them (or mod them out to avoid temptation).

Interesting.. Thanks for the info.. I hope they don't end up removing them entirely, just nerfing them in ways similar to what's been suggested here.. Based on what you're saying, maybe cages should be material-dependent, so wooden ones don't work against things strong enough to break them, and top-tier monsters would require strong metals. lol
Of course, I know things like this won't be added any time soon, I can wait, I just hadn't seen anyone discuss these aspects of cages anywhere yet.

I think by the time Moving Fortress Parts is done, we'll be thinking much more in 3 dimensions. At the very least, where do the rock and the cage actually fall from? Along with, how far can I catapult the advancing army using just a high speed elevator?

Of course, Toady might just add inside cage wear when the Improved Sieges updates hit (post-Steam, pre-Big Wait). You may be able to drop a cage onto a Bronze Colossus outside, in the middle of a desert, but you won't keep him there for long. That would be Fun.

[GoblinCookie]

If cages could be broken out of that would make large animal taming much harder.  A lot of stuff is already rare.  If you had to have bronze or iron or steel cages to catch them it would be prohibitive to set enough cages on some maps. 

Civilized invaders letting their squadmates out of cage traps would be fine.  The real need that is uniquely filled by cage traps is the live capture of animals.

Not if we give animals a penalty to breaking out of cages due to being too stupid to figure it out. 

[Atarlost]

If cages could be broken out of that would make large animal taming much harder.  A lot of stuff is already rare.  If you had to have bronze or iron or steel cages to catch them it would be prohibitive to set enough cages on some maps. 

Civilized invaders letting their squadmates out of cage traps would be fine.  The real need that is uniquely filled by cage traps is the live capture of animals.

Not if we give animals a penalty to breaking out of cages due to being too stupid to figure it out.

It really has to be complete inability or they will break out at the wrong time any time you try to capture anything worth taming. 

[Butterfly]

Invaders, spies and saboteurs freeing prisoners from cages seems like it would be PERFECT for the current Villains arc.

You could capture a thief in a cage, but then one of its colleagues might infiltrate the fort and rescue your prisoner!

Villains could even try and sabotage your fort be freeing caged animals and monsters - although it might not be in their interest to free a caged Dragon or Hydra if they have any sense of self-preservation...

[GoblinCookie]

It really has to be complete inability or they will break out at the wrong time any time you try to capture anything worth taming.

I did not say it had to be a random.  It could be deterministic so that it is a penalty to the size than an animal as opposed to a person has to be to break out of a cage of a given size. 

[Atarlost]

It really has to be complete inability or they will break out at the wrong time any time you try to capture anything worth taming.

I did not say it had to be a random.  It could be deterministic so that it is a penalty to the size than an animal as opposed to a person has to be to break out of a cage of a given size.

Then you need potentially rare materials to trap large animals at all, and large war animals should not be gated behind steel, iron, or tin. 

[thompson]

It really has to be complete inability or they will break out at the wrong time any time you try to capture anything worth taming.

I did not say it had to be a random.  It could be deterministic so that it is a penalty to the size than an animal as opposed to a person has to be to break out of a cage of a given size.

Then you need potentially rare materials to trap large animals at all, and large war animals should not be gated behind steel, iron, or tin.

You say that like it's a problem. Steel should work against any mundane creature. Even iron should do it. But a more comprehensive room-size trap system is coming.

[Lightman]

Invaders, spies and saboteurs freeing prisoners from cages seems like it would be PERFECT for the current Villains arc.

You could capture a thief in a cage, but then one of its colleagues might infiltrate the fort and rescue your prisoner!

Villains could even try and sabotage your fort be freeing caged animals and monsters - although it might not be in their interest to free a caged Dragon or Hydra if they have any sense of self-preservation...

Agreed. This should definitely be a thing. I won't like it when it happens but it sounds like !!fun!!

[GoblinCookie]

Then you need potentially rare materials to trap large animals at all, and large war animals should not be gated behind steel, iron, or tin.

That is the idea.  The important idea is that you need stronger materials to keep intelligent creatures captive than an animal of an equivalent size. 

[Atarlost]

Then you need potentially rare materials to trap large animals at all, and large war animals should not be gated behind steel, iron, or tin.

That is the idea.  The important idea is that you need stronger materials to keep intelligent creatures captive than an animal of an equivalent size.

That's absurd.  Intelligent creatures are no stronger, and probably often weaker, than unintelligent creatures of the same size.  If they can open the latch the material strength of the cage is completely irrelevant.  If they cannot (as they shouldn't unless they're outside the cage if it was designed to capture intelligent creatures) they have no advantage. 

The problem I really object to is that you are implying that unintelligent creatures should also break out of cages.  That is bad balance.  Trained animals are already weak without having to sometimes import metals to start the process. 

Chance should not enter into cages other than perhaps a miss chance for the trap.  Opening a cage from outside should be 100% and opening a cage from inside 0%.