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Author Topic: Breaking off from your civ & influencing civ beliefs  (Read 843 times)

Kiloku

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Breaking off from your civ & influencing civ beliefs
« on: October 02, 2019, 10:34:59 am »

I remember reading somewhere that you could break away from your original civ, in Fort mode, thus making your fortress the capital of a brand new civ. I can't find it again, and I can't figure out how to do that. Is it still possible?

Second question: I know that a civ's set of moral/social beliefs affect what the dwarves born and raised in it believe in. Does this work the opposite way, too? Can I change my dwarves minds about various topics (via an Adv. mode conversationalist/philosopher, or via a library with books on certain beliefs), and then if most of them start believing that, would this become the civ's own belief?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Breaking off from your civ & influencing civ beliefs
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2019, 02:01:58 pm »

I haven't heard of any way to break off from your civ. A fortress is NOT a civ, but an entity below one. Playing a truly dead civ (as DF buggily determines it) is the closest thing you can get, but that just gives you a fortress with a dead civ on top of it (which causes raids to bug out, as the dead civ does not move armies, so the squads leave the fortress, but won't arrive anywhere nor return).

You can change citizen views with books and adventurers, but newborn civ members still have beliefs distributed around the "official" civ values. The way to change civ values, as far as I understand, is to influence the top leader (monarch, in the case of dorfs), as the leader can influence civ values. Presumably, if you do that consistently with a sufficient number of leaders over a sufficiently long time you should be able to change the values. It can also be noted that the monarchs also tend to read books (and an adventurer who writes value changing books in the capital should have a chance of influencing multiple monarchs with the same set of books). Careful elimination of value changing books going in the opposite direction ought to help as well.

At least, the above is what I believe from having read discussions about it (including, I think, what Toady has said). The dead civ part is from my own experience, though.
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Loci

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Re: Breaking off from your civ & influencing civ beliefs
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2019, 07:05:40 pm »

Can I change my dwarves minds about various topics (via an Adv. mode conversationalist/philosopher, or via a library with books on certain beliefs), and then if most of them start believing that, would this become the civ's own belief?

Not directly. However, each year your library has a chance to influence your civ's values, as described by Toady:

"Libraries have an effect in world gen in the currently released version, based on the original and copied books that are there.  Every year, each library gets five turns to pick a book.  If the book has a poetic/music/dance form, it has a chance to make that form well-known in the entire parent civ, as a form of cultural diffusion.  If the book promotes a value at a certain level, it makes a roll against the author's skill roll when they made the book.  The local site civ can have their values shifted by 1-2 point (it takes 10 or more to change the visible text for the value), and the parent civ can also be shifted a point, and all sites under the parent civ have a chance to be shifted a point as well."

(source: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169696.msg7937883;topicseen#msg7937883)

To 'game' the system, you'd want a small library (or multiple small libraries?) with only well-written books with the values you wish to propagate.

Edit: Apparently I missed the "in world gen" qualifier in the quote, so there's no guarantee that player libraries can have any impact on a civ's values.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 07:14:18 pm by Loci »
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Kiloku

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Re: Breaking off from your civ & influencing civ beliefs
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2019, 07:14:54 pm »

The way he worded it, seems that this only happens during Worldgen, though
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Breaking off from your civ & influencing civ beliefs
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2019, 10:21:31 pm »

The way he worded it, seems that this only happens during Worldgen, though
Worldgen is ongoing during play.
Not all of it, but there's nothing in this description that confirms or denies that it stops after the initial world generation.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Breaking off from your civ & influencing civ beliefs
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2019, 01:26:55 am »

World activities and activation is ongoing, but the world has already finished generating at that point. So I'd guess* no, but maybe can mod in born secrets into wildlife populations which will make them write books that touch on the relevant value when recruited into parent civilization.

* Instead of guessing, could also generate legendary value-changing books in dfhack, use them for whatever location you're curious about while ensuring they must be picked, then wait over a year, then check site values with gui/gm-editor.

feelotraveller

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Re: Breaking off from your civ & influencing civ beliefs
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2019, 04:22:05 am »

I have no idea if books can shift civ values in ongoing play - however the above quote would imply that if this does happen then the roll would be made once at that point when the book is first acquired.  If the latter proposition is correct then something more elaborate than simply spawning books with dfhack might be required to see if there is the possibility of the shift happening after worldgen proper has finished - in particular the books would need an identified author with a defined 'skill' level.  (My gut instinct is to say that it will not happen anyways, but this is just a guess...)

There's always the option of an email to Toady petititioning the relevant deity.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 04:25:51 am by feelotraveller »
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