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Author Topic: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost  (Read 3470 times)

Naturegirl1999

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"Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« on: September 25, 2019, 07:05:38 pm »

Almost everything should be recyclable. 
Glass should be recyclable like metal producing raw glass, which should be usable in place of sand in glass object production.  Historically glass was traded as ingots in classical antiquity. 
Wooden objects should be able to be converted into charcoal based on size storing fractional bars in the furnace in the same way smelters store fractional metal bars from melting. 
Quilts should be possible from worn cloth items and dwarves should use them to upgrade the quality of their beds.  Rag paper was promised at some point and is also a good idea, but quilts are another way worn clothing has historically been recycled. 
Bone objects should be able to be ground into bone meal fertilizer at a quern or millstone. 
Anything organic should be able to be incinerated in a furnace to produce ash (plus fuel ash, so burning something like a bed would take a log and produce two ash (one for the log, one for the bed) while burning something like a xquiverx would take a log and produce an extra fractional unit of ash in the furnace for the xquiverx).
Rock objects should be able to be turned to gravel that can be used directly for paving roads, in reactions (probably at 3 gravel to the stone since a bunch of crafting processes produce 3 products), and mixed with quicklime to make concrete. 
Pottery shard were used in antiquity along with lime to produce early hydraulic cements, but I'm unsure if DF is ready to support construction from above in a way that would make hydraulic cements useful. 

Merchants should not accept anything of xqualityx or lower.  They're the least annoying way to dispose of xcrapx, though, so manager automatable recycling chains are kind of needed first.
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scourge728

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2019, 08:15:32 am »

Adding to the concrete idea, when walls become able to be damaged, you should be able to make it with water or blood to make the stronger roman style concrete that people forgot how to do for quite a while

DerMeister

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2019, 02:04:40 pm »

Good, except idea about merchants and worn.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2019, 04:20:52 pm »

Good, except idea about merchants and worn.
Why?
...
Well OK, I'll try answering that myself. If everything is recyclable, then merchants are surely more likely to pick up worn crap as there'll be a market for the raw materials if nothing else (assuming there's always plenty of space on the wagons). Cheaper, sure and would perhaps need a new class of junk collector merchants.
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Blastbeard

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2019, 10:32:30 pm »

I don't like the idea of merchants flatly refusing worn-out items. In my opinion, the only time a trade should be refused outright is with elves and wood. Perhaps the value of items should drop drastically depending on the level of wear, or reduce the merchant's willingness to trade, but refusing to trade them altogether is a deal-breaker for me.

Then there's quilts. They do offer a better use for old clothing than as an offering to Lord Singuloth Magma Nanimous, but what would we use them for? Realistically, I mean, ignoring the obvious urge to commit war crimes spicy tactics by coating them in Forgotten Beast dust and gifting them out to enemies.

Other than that, I like what I see.
-I like the idea breaking wooden and glass items down in a way similar to metal ones. You could probably whip up a reaction to burn down furniture yourself, but it seems basic enough that it should be the base game.
-Incinerating organic matter for ash is a fantastic idea. I already use a similar reaction to clean up vermin remains and severed limbs, so a built-in version that can use any organic material would be a godsend.
-Bone crafts into bone meal is a good idea too, but why not skip the middleman and allow unused bones to be ground down as well?
-Concrete has has been suggested more than a few times, but I still think it's a good idea, and the more methods of producing it there are, the better.
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Atarlost

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2019, 01:29:13 am »

Good, except idea about merchants and worn.
Why?
...
Well OK, I'll try answering that myself. If everything is recyclable, then merchants are surely more likely to pick up worn crap as there'll be a market for the raw materials if nothing else (assuming there's always plenty of space on the wagons). Cheaper, sure and would perhaps need a new class of junk collector merchants.

My thinking is that merchants should not be willing to buy stuff they wouldn't sell and between merchants bringing you wagonloads of trash and merchants not dealing in trash I'd prefer merchants not deal in trash.  It's a less annoying solution and the more balanced solution.  Also, the value of trash would be really low.  It would be the raw material it recycles into minus the fuel to recycle it and further reduced because the dwarf labor to do the recycling should have some value. 

There are already all sorts of things merchants won't trade in.  Most furniture for example. 

Then there's quilts. They do offer a better use for old clothing than as an offering to Lord Singuloth Magma Nanimous, but what would we use them for? Realistically, I mean, ignoring the obvious urge to commit war crimes spicy tactics by coating them in Forgotten Beast dust and gifting them out to enemies.

My idea was that dwarves would put them on their beds and add their value to the beds for "slept on a quality bed" thoughts.  And you could export them. 

-Bone crafts into bone meal is a good idea too, but why not skip the middleman and allow unused bones to be ground down as well?
That works for animals you kill and probably ought to go without saying if bonemeal is going to be a thing, but I can think of at least two ways you can unexpectedly become unable or unwilling to export stuff that you may have made for export or made as a stopgap before getting metal and now need to get rid of.  A Titan or megabeast you aren't willing to fight could show up or a noble could come to power who likes something you were going to trade and you don't want to risk him slapping an export restriction on it while the caravan is in the process of leaving. 

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AshTheTiefling

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2019, 05:50:11 pm »


Good, except idea about merchants and worn.
Why?
...
Well OK, I'll try answering that myself. If everything is recyclable, then merchants are surely more likely to pick up worn crap as there'll be a market for the raw materials if nothing else (assuming there's always plenty of space on the wagons). Cheaper, sure and would perhaps need a new class of junk collector merchants.

My thinking is that merchants should not be willing to buy stuff they wouldn't sell and between merchants bringing you wagonloads of trash and merchants not dealing in trash I'd prefer merchants not deal in trash.  It's a less annoying solution and the more balanced solution.  Also, the value of trash would be really low.  It would be the raw material it recycles into minus the fuel to recycle it and further reduced because the dwarf labor to do the recycling should have some value. 

With the merchant argument, I think that maybe some caravans accept used goods, while some don't. Pompous elves see you offloading your rubbish on them as an insult, whereas humans accept damaged items so long as they're useful to them.
Quote
Cheaper, sure and would perhaps need a new class of junk collector merchants.
I really like the idea of a second-hand goods caravan that comes every year and only trades XitemsX or below.
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Bumber

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2019, 07:15:15 pm »

I really like the idea of a second-hand goods caravan that comes every year and only trades XitemsX or below.
Run by disguised kobolds as a distraction to sneak into your fort.
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AshTheTiefling

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2019, 06:51:50 pm »

I really like the idea of a second-hand goods caravan that comes every year and only trades XitemsX or below.
Run by disguised kobolds as a distraction to sneak into your fort.
Greetings, Dwarves! We are here to exchange any unwanted items you wish to be rid of, just tell us the location of anything adamantite, and we'll stea... happily trade!

I'd actually go for this idea, it would be hilarious to have a bunch of kobolds rocking up to your fort pretending to be humans.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 06:54:08 pm by AshTheTiefling »
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Blastbeard

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2019, 10:21:42 pm »

Three kobolds in a coat, leading a pack giant cave spider crudely painted in cow spots, saddlebags full of inferior stone crafts, worn-out weapons coated in various venoms, and tattered clothing sized for kobolds. If they fail to find an opening to sneak further into the fort, they behave like a normal albeit highly suspicious caravan.
So much could be done with false identities that aren't and it's a shame.

We should be able to break down clothing to get some of the components back. Maybe not a perfect bolt of cloth, but At the very least a few threads, maybe even some items used in improvements.
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Lunardog15

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2019, 11:10:58 am »

heloow doorf me haz the shiney pokeys stabys.... trade plz?
Us is the normal hooman yes yes not suspisish at all   
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InsaneRationalist

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2019, 09:46:27 am »

I don't like the idea of merchants flatly refusing worn-out items. In my opinion, the only time a trade should be refused outright is with elves and wood. Perhaps the value of items should drop drastically depending on the level of wear, or reduce the merchant's willingness to trade, but refusing to trade them altogether is a deal-breaker for me.

Nitpick: this should probably apply to *any* ethic-intolerable trade good; eg humans and dwarves might refuse sapient meat roasts. Strongly agree with the actual point, though - unless the item's existence offends them it should just count as very low value.
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Atarlost

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2019, 01:48:21 pm »

The problem is that trade should be symmetrical because Dwarf Fortress is a story simulator first and a game second.  Anything the merchants are willing to buy from you that their civilization produces they should also show up to sell.  And the game would become unplayable if merchants showed up with pages of used clothing. 

It's not like there aren't things caravans won't trade.  Things more viable to trade than used clothing or broken swords.  Like furniture.  You can't sell nether cap cabinets to humans in a desert, but you can sell used woolen coats. 

When realistic trade and industrial development is introduced no one will want junk except maybe high value metals and it's something that can actually be filtered out without implementing the whole world economy. 
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betaking

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2020, 02:36:05 pm »

Think that certainly fabrics should be recyclable,

if not there should be a "send to compost" ability that's less laggy than designating something to be dumped.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: "Almost Everything Should Be Recyclable" by Atarlost
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2020, 05:25:05 pm »

The problem is that trade should be symmetrical because Dwarf Fortress is a story simulator first and a game second.  Anything the merchants are willing to buy from you that their civilization produces they should also show up to sell.  And the game would become unplayable if merchants showed up with pages of used clothing.

This could be dealt with by allowing you to specify that you don't want used items, or the AI could just recognize that you never buy used items so it would stop bringing them.
Besides, buying second-hand goods at a discount isn't such a bad mechanic.
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