Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Advanced Weapons  (Read 2686 times)

Strik3r

  • Bay Watcher
  • Persistently work-in-progress.
    • View Profile
Re: Advanced Weapons
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2019, 01:29:22 pm »

Good idea. Also needs tokens for attack around the shield (whip, scourge and flail). And some wrestling-like usages of this weapons.

I'm not sure that making it possible for some weapons to ignore shields a good idea but i suppose there could be a tag like [UNBLOCKABLE:X] that decreases the chance to block the attack by X percent.
And being able to manipulate weapons that are stuck inside or wrapped around a target is something that the game will need but is not really within the scope of this thread.
But i suppose as a stopgap, [GRAB] attacks with sufficent force could knock foes down.
It's not only grabbing by weapon. I talk about flexible weapons. This also can be debugging of scourge and whip penetration power.

Well whips would certanly be one of the weapons to get a degree of shield bypass but probably wont have a great chance to grab a target(whips aren't really that flexible), scourges can't grab, nor shield bypass and flails would have limited shield bypass and no grab.
On the wrestling front, the remoteness of grabbing with weapon doesn't really allow for the complex movements needed. I suppose if you manage to get a [GRAB] weapon around someone's throat, you could choke them(with some diifficulty) and thats about it. Then again, a bladed whip like weapon would just slice the throat on grab...

Grabbing a shield with a weapon...? I'm not sure whether that'd be a failure or a success. Especially considering you can't target weapons with attacks(but you can with wrestling.)
Logged
NOTICE: If you can't update your profile/signature, stop using a Imgur URL for your profile picture.
Upload it to somewhere else.

Blastbeard

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Advanced Weapons
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2019, 01:57:47 pm »

It's not only grabbing by weapon. I talk about flexible weapons. This also can be debugging of scourge and whip penetration power.
Flexible like an urumi? Even if you managed to put a shield between you and a weapon like that, there's still a chance it will wrap around the shield and hit you anyway. The blow would probably lose a fair amount of force from using the edge of your shield as a lever, but it would still be something to worry about. To that end, if we're going with unblockable attacks, perhaps the block chance of the defender's shield(s) should cut into how much damage the attack can do.
Logged
I don't know how it all works, I just throw molten science at the wall and see what ignites.

DerMeister

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Advanced Weapons
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2019, 02:54:07 pm »

Good idea. Also needs tokens for attack around the shield (whip, scourge and flail). And some wrestling-like usages of this weapons.

I'm not sure that making it possible for some weapons to ignore shields a good idea but i suppose there could be a tag like [UNBLOCKABLE:X] that decreases the chance to block the attack by X percent.
And being able to manipulate weapons that are stuck inside or wrapped around a target is something that the game will need but is not really within the scope of this thread.
But i suppose as a stopgap, [GRAB] attacks with sufficent force could knock foes down.
It's not only grabbing by weapon. I talk about flexible weapons. This also can be debugging of scourge and whip penetration power.

Well whips would certanly be one of the weapons to get a degree of shield bypass but probably wont have a great chance to grab a target(whips aren't really that flexible), scourges can't grab, nor shield bypass and flails would have limited shield bypass and no grab.
On the wrestling front, the remoteness of grabbing with weapon doesn't really allow for the complex movements needed. I suppose if you manage to get a [GRAB] weapon around someone's throat, you could choke them(with some diifficulty) and thats about it. Then again, a bladed whip like weapon would just slice the throat on grab...

Grabbing a shield with a weapon...? I'm not sure whether that'd be a failure or a success. Especially considering you can't target weapons with attacks(but you can with wrestling.)
What about grabbing weapon by flails chain? Flexible weapons will use in wrestling for more effiency strangling of opponent.
Logged

DerMeister

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Advanced Weapons
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2019, 04:09:07 pm »

Also, goblins need weapons larger even than vanilla two-handed - for using by trolls and ogres. I even make mod with it, but in current version this works buggy.
Logged

SixOfSpades

  • Bay Watcher
  • likes flesh balls for their calming roundness
    • View Profile
Re: Advanced Weapons
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2019, 08:28:34 am »

Well whips would certanly be one of the weapons to get a degree of shield bypass, but probably wont have a great chance to grab a target(whips aren't really that flexible)
Eh, depends on the whip. Some are stiffer than others, and the more flexible ones can grab--especially if specifically designed to do so. But the more flexible the whip is, the lower its ability to transfer the energy of each stroke into harming the victim. Then again, since the worst damage a whip strike can do is leave a welt or a skin-deep cut (and that's only when the victim is wearing no armor at all), it likely would be best to use whips as an "entangle-only" supporting weapon, like nets or bolas.

Fun Fact #1: Whips can be used with great accuracy--there are tales of Roman charioteers who could kill a fly on the wall on the other side of a room. But when a whip is cracked at a specific target like this, the force travels in a straight line, & there would be no potential for shield bypass or wraparound.

Quote
scourges can't grab
You must not have seen the nastier types of scourges. From your own link, "Hard material can be affixed to multiple thongs to give a flesh-tearing "bite". A scourge with these additions is called a scorpion." Both scourges and whips are sometimes given metal tips, and some scourges were even tipped with barbed fishhooks. In a combat situation, these could certainly grab skin (though the victim could fight the pull, which with enough strength would rip the hooks out) and chain mail.

Quote
flails would have limited shield bypass and no grab.
Again, it depends on the design of the flail; a shorter chain means less power from centrifugal force (& less wraparound potential), but more accuracy. It might be interesting to randomize flail designs for each civilization.

Quote
I suppose if you manage to get a [GRAB] weapon around someone's throat, you could choke them(with some diifficulty) and thats about it.
Hmmm . . . would the Crime & Punishment arc be improved by including the garrote?

And speaking of entangling with chain weapons, it's high time to mention the gnarliest of them all: The kusarigama.

Fun Fact #2: Miyamoto Musashi was considered the greatest samurai duelist of all time (he literally wrote the book on the subject), fighting over 60 duels and winning them all through his swordsmanship alone, except one. When he fought a kusarigama expert, Musashi found that his skill & experience were insufficient to secure victory--he had to lure his opponent into a bamboo grove, where he had less room to swing his chain, enabling Musashi to kill him.

Quote
Grabbing a shield with a weapon...? I'm not sure whether that'd be a failure or a success.
If you're wielding a second weapon in your other hand, and yanking their shield aside will come as a surprise to your enemy, then that's likely to be a success. Particularly if the force of your pull on the shield also turns the enemy, so they can't properly use their own weapon.


Other thoughts:
Footman's flail. Two-handed, taken directly from the agricultural tool--no adaptation required, though metal studs were often added to the business end for combat use. Can be used in close formation if the users limit their strokes to a strict up & down motion (which, incidentally, would probably be devastating against shieldwalls).

All wraparound attacks must be done at less than the weapon's maximum range.

If this is to be done right, all weapons should have a Clutter Factor, some way of indicating how much open space (free of obstacles like walls, foliage, furniture, other creatures) is required to use the weapon effectively. Short weapons like axes & maces need only a little, hand-sized weapons like daggers & knuckledusters can be used even while wrestling, thrusting weapons like spears need plenty of room in one direction, and large, swinging weapons like whips, staves, & 2-handed swords need clear space in all directions.
Logged
Dwarf Fortress -- kind of like Minecraft, but for people who hate themselves.

Pillbo

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Advanced Weapons
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2019, 08:23:01 pm »

It might be simpler to just size weapons according to the user in a similar way to what we already do with clothing. A human, a giant, and an amphibian man are going to have different ideas about what counts as a "long" sword and are likely to make three different weapons and call them by the same name. There might be some issues  getting contact areas and penetration to scale with size, but if it works out every race would get a full arsenal.

if weapon size is an issue that even needs resolving then this is probably the best way to do it and have a kind of a relative weight system for weapons.
A kobold probably could use a human dagger as a sword but isn't gonna be able to use a human greatsword at all. Something maybe like [MIN_WEIGHT:X] With X being the percentage of the making creature's average adult weight multiplied by 10. So, a sword made for average weight of a creature would be [MIN_WEIGHT:1000], and would translate to 70000 for humans, 60000 for dwarves/elves and 40000 for kobolds and so on. And remove the current size tags for weapons or keep them for backwards compatability with existing mods and allow weapons to still have hardcoded size restrictions, maybe for some more exotic weapons, perhaps something extracted from a creature or something.

This would actually have the benefit of preventing two handed weapons from being wielded in one hand with little to no effort. So, another tag will be needed to determine the relative weight to be able to 1-hand the weapon.

If it is a problem that's worth fixing. It may be better to ignore and disregard the absurdity of a kobold strapping a two hander onto its back, for the sake of gameplay convinience.

Another possibility would be something in the raws to define what skills a weapon would use based on size. Something like:
Quote from: Two-Handed Sword
[SIZE:900]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:77500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[OVER_SIZE:120000]
[OVER_SIZE_SKILL:DAGGER]


Quote from: Dagger
[SIZE:200]
[SKILL:DAGGER]
[TWO_HANDED:27500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:5000]
[UNDER_SIZE:27500]
[UNDER_SIZE_SKILL:SWORD]


Quote from: Spear
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:SPEAR]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:5000]
[UNDER_SIZE:30000]
[UNDER_SIZE_SKILL:PIKE]
[OVER_SIZE:100000]
[OVER_SIZE_SKILL:DAGGER]

Logged
Pages: 1 [2]