Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 20

Author Topic: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Final Phase, 1941 Cold Season  (Read 24915 times)

Man of Paper

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Design Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #105 on: October 27, 2019, 08:14:25 pm »

Combat Report, Cold Season 1937 AC
Music for Getting In The Mood

The unforgiving sun and an unnatural heat beat upon the Embralish fleet as the first landing ships made it to the shore of Harren. A few scouts had landed earlier and stumbled across the ruins of an abandoned city half-swallowed by a massive ever-smoking crater. Smouldering ruins and the occasional seemingly permanent fire dotted the landscape, and signs of heavy fortification some years ago were readily apparent. Initial progress for setting up a base of operations was successful, with the Embrallia Expedition Command Center built up in an old military facility just outside the abandoned city. This burning slice of wasteland paradise was dubbed "The Rupture".

Scouts and prospectors found trace amounts of elements unique to Harren during the first few days of exploration on the island, but progress came to a sudden and absolute halt when the natives finally made their presence known. A convoy was moving to an outpost being set up in the direction of The Badlands when they were attacked by a pair of Pact soldiers utilizing some sort of strength-enhancing armor with a pack on their backs granting flight. Each was armed with a devastating weapon larger than any individual would normally carry that fired bullets which would explode into a burst of liquid metal on impact.

They strafed the convoy, raining shots down on the transport trucks and the vehicles escorting them. It was a bloodbath. While they were clear targets with little cover while flying around, drawing fire from a dozen different machine guns and many more rifles, neither assailant seemed to suffer injury. They flew off before we could properly respond, and attacks like this, without any contact from these flying soldiers, began to occur on a regular basis. The only reason we were able to continue onwards, even when we had, at most, maybe, managed to inconvenience one of their soldiers with gunfire, was due to our scouting parties.

Embralish Sikari were dropped along the shores of the Salviosi island through The Boiling Seas and into The Maelstrom. These small groups were tasked with identifying anywhere these natives might be using for operations - past the massive fortress jutting out of the river between Salvios and Abbera. We dared not extend ourselves over Pact territory as well as land that the Inithari had likely already taken, so operations were focused on Salvios, with the Fortress-City being given a wide berth. A few unexpected attacks along the coast from the lone Mukebaza's guns with accurate spotting support from Sikari and the occasional damaging blow from a Rogi saw the Pact withdrawing to protect only their most vital holdings.

On occasion our forces would be harassed by a flying disc-shaped vessel or bombarded by specks on the horizon, but their numbers were too small to cause significant impact. Their ammunition was devastating, and every hit just about guaranteed plenty of death, but there was no capability, or perhaps desire, to follow through. Reconnaissance showed that they doubled down on holding the exact things we were there for: the locations where extraction and processing the island's unique resources were possible. Probing these positions proved very, very deadly.

We encountered ten-foot tall armored warriors capable of tossing aside a Rogi, bipedal war machines, hovering gun platforms, hovering tanks, and there were even reports of a massive ship flying through The Maelstrom north of the Fortress-City before the radio cut out. The Pact drew their lines in the ground and dug in, confident in their ability to defend that which we were here for. And, for now anyways, it seems as if they are right. Mines, machine guns, massive rifles, and monstrous artillery have stubbed any attempt at closing in on them so far.

When The Pact surrendered the majority of land it gave us the opportunity to further expand our operations. Prospectors soon realized that, not only did this island have the fabled energy-providing Gavrillium and the gravity-defying Caelium, but there were also entire Wells that the natives never touched. It's possible they just never knew what they were looking at and thought them useless cave systems.

Scouting and combat throughout Salvios has given us information about each of it's environments:

Spoiler: The Rupture (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Mesas (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Badlands (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Desert (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Volcanic Range (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Burning Hills (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Wastes (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: South Peaks (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Southern Stormlands (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Mudflats (click to show/hide)

----------------


While we prepare to push the Pact from their holdings we still need to contend with the more immediate threat of the Embralish across the strait. While going through the Pact isn't suggested, we still have options for engaging them. While plans of action are drawn up it is time to prepare for the coming conflict!

You have one design. IT IS NOW THE DESIGN PHASE.

But wait, there's more! There's a contest! You are tasked with creating propaganda to smear your enemies (Pact included) or promote yourself! Doing so will result in a Resource Credit, and the better of the two, chosen by me, will win their team a Research Credit as well! This propaganda can come in any format.

Spoiler: Territories (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Resources (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Embrallish Armory (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 08:26:38 pm by Man of Paper »
Logged

NUKE9.13

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Design Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2019, 03:13:54 pm »

Just posting this here to keep the conversation moving. A simple howitzer, which we will definitely need at some point; why not now?

Quote
Havezara-108 Mk.IV:
It is a fact well known to those who know it well that you can't fight a modern war without artillery. It is, in fact, a catastrophic blunder that we didn't have any Havezara-108s ready for duty when first landing on Harren. I blame Dave. He accidentally locked the cargo hatches on every single ship carrying them, then slipped and dropped the keys- all of them- into the ocean. Damnit, Dave.

The Havezara-108 Mk.IV is the latest iteration of field howitzer deployed by the Legions. As the name implies, the gun fires shells with a 108mm calibre (we'll just focus on locating the stores of high-explosive shells for now, before worrying about other varieties). Variable charges can be used to adjust range/velocity as needed. The breech is sealed with a patented "Diagonal sliding block",  described as either "best of both worlds" or "worst of both worlds", depending on who you ask. Recoil is managed with a standard hydro-pneumatic system. The carriage is of the split-trail variety, and offers a 36 degree traverse and an elevation of up to 46 degrees. The Mk.III suffered from poor mobility, which is something the Mk.IV focused on fixing, reducing the weight of the carriage where possible, and making it easier to tow.

Of course, these already exist. The fact that picking the locks on the ships carrying them will take an entire design bureau's efforts is a testament to the craftsmanship of Embralish locksmiths, and the mind-boggling incompetence of Dave.

I would gladly accept suggestions for changes/additions.
Logged
Long Live United Forenia!

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / 5th Prelim Revision Phase
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2019, 04:51:07 pm »

Quote
Mk.III Jovi 4x4:
Screw it. The Mk.III Jovi 4x4 is a simple, sturdy, reliable vehicle. It's a jeep. It's not interesting at all, but it is a very important piece of kit to have, especially if you want to make your forces as manoeuvrable as possible. It's a jeep. Its relatively small size, extra powerful engine, and four-wheel drive mean it can go pretty much anywhere. Up a mountain, across a desert, through a jungle- it can even navigate some tunnels. It's a jeep. It can be used to tow even heavy artillery, supplies, or other vehicles. It can be used to scout, ambush, transport. Even stationary, it can be used to provide power to a variety of equipment. It's a jeep.
BUT WAIT! Whilst it is a jeep, the Mk.II Jovi 4x4 also has some interesting features. For instance, there are optional panels of Wellvine resin around the engine block- thin, low-quality ones, but they should muffle engine noise a fair amount. There is also a basic air conditioning system that provides some small amount of cooler(ish) air to the passengers, despite the openness of the vehicle. Also, needless to say, mounting a machine gun or other (with recoil, size, and weight all within reasonable limits) weapon to the back of the vehicle is a fairly trivial operation. It's still a jeep.

Thank you to NUKE for the original proposal, and now I've *very lightly* modified it to put some more emphasis on its power, because I'd like something capable of doing some heavy equipment. Like, for instance, an ~1800 kilogram ~5" (technically 120mm) gun mounted on a wheeled carriage and deployed to defensive positions...like this potential revision:

Quote
120mm/32 Towed Assault Gun Mark I
Copied from secondary guns on the Mukebaza, the 120mm/32 TAG is just what it says on the tin: a 120mm/32 caliber naval gun without autoloader or any other fancy bits and pieces with a basic optical sighting system plus wheeled carriage capable of being towed by a Jovi or truck or whatever else we may have to tow it. It's primarily used for murdering heavily armored vehicles advancing on strongpoints or well-protected positions by long-range fire from stationary positions, before being towed to a new firing position. The high velocity of a naval gun make it powerful at close range against even thick armor, while admittedly rendering it fairly incapable of high-arc firing and thus reducing its ability to use cover at close and middle ranges (plunging fire still allows it to be hidden from long-range targets).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 06:29:25 pm by Madman198237 »
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

NUKE9.13

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Design Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2019, 04:04:37 pm »

I'd rather not jury-rig artillery. There's no huge rush to get it out, so better to take our time and do it right.
I agree that a jeep (it's a jeep) would do us good, but since we have at least some sort of vehicles available that could tow artillery around, I'd rather do artillery first, then jeep (not that towing artillery is the only thing jeeps are good for, obviously, but artillery is our priority right now).
So, to get things moving, I'm going to put down a vote for my thing.

Quote from: Quoth the Votebox
Havezara-108 Mk.IV: (1) NUKE9.13
Mk.III Jovi 4x4:
Logged
Long Live United Forenia!

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Design Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2019, 06:28:30 pm »

Since visions of the 5"/38 caliber are now dancing through my head, what if we did something patently Arms Race and just stuck a 120mm naval gun in a high-elevation less-armored land mounting?

Quote
120mm/32 Caliber Triple Purpose Artillery
Based on the 120mm/32 naval gun on our heavy cruiser, the TPA unit is a modification of that gun to be mounted on a towable mount with no armor except a rifle-caliber-resistant gunshield, with the mount proper adjusted to allow for high-angle elevation and manual traverse instead of powered traverse. Things like autoloaders and powered traverse gearing are left on the ship, while the breech, barrel, and sighting equipment for single mounts. This allows us to get a very capable gun with little ballistic engineering, leaving the engineering time to be spent on producing a sufficiently lightweight yet capable mounting system that the gun can operate in three modes: First up, direct fire, just like it does at sea. Firing heavy armor-piercing and high explosive shells at relatively close-range targets. Second, indirect fire, allowed by the high elevation of the new mounting, using lighter charges to lob shells like a howitzer. Finally, anti-aircraft roles are filled by this gun with lighter fragmentation rounds set to burst on timer, which can be set by the crew. Or, if the enemy flies really heavy aircraft, we just use an armor piercing shell or maybe a naval high explosive shell, which does still have an armor-penetrating capability and would be somewhat lighter than the armor piercing shell and also capable of dealing more damage.

So this would be a design, but is basically "What if we took a naval dual purpose gun, and also includes smaller charges so it could be fired as a howitzer?" It has historical precedent in being a dual-purpose weapon, and firing a lighter non-armor-piercing-capable artillery high explosive shell with a lower-velocity howitzer charge is definitely something that is physically possible and not unreasonable to do. Basically, it gets us artillery, but artillery that packs an unimaginable wallop in direct fire and can also do antiaircraft work against heavy flying units.

I personally prefer doing the Jeep for maximum logistical power (and also because the vehicle is really super fitting to our deployments whereas heavy artillery is just not) and because we could conceivably revision up a decent if not perfect (I must disagree with NUKE: this would be far from "jury-rigging" and would produce a perfectly serviceable weapon) artillery gun from the naval gun, whereas we can't for the Jeep and not having the Jeep means we don't have the sort of mobility our strategy really could use in the wonderful environs of Harren.

Quote from: Quoth the Votebox
Havezara-108 Mk.IV: (1) NUKE9.13
Mk.III Jovi 4x4: (1) Madman

Also I'm going to edit in a basic air conditioner to my repost of NUKE's Jovi proposal.
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

frostgiant

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Design Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2019, 07:59:08 pm »


Quote from: Quoth the Votebox
Havezara-108 Mk.IV: (2) NUKE9.13,Frostgiant
Mk.III Jovi 4x4:(1) Madman

Artillery first, everything else can wait.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 08:06:41 pm by frostgiant »
Logged

TheFantasticMsFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ckk Ckk
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Design Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #111 on: October 30, 2019, 10:46:38 am »


Quote from: Quoth the Votebox
Havezara-108 Mk.IV: (3) NUKE9.13,Frostgiant, TFF
Mk.III Jovi 4x4:(1) Madman

Hail to the queen of the battlefield.
Logged


Man of Paper

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Revision Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #112 on: October 30, 2019, 01:40:52 pm »

Design Phase, Hot Season 1938 AC

Proposal: Havezara-108 Mk.IV
Quote
Havezara-108 Mk.IV:
It is a fact well known to those who know it well that you can't fight a modern war without artillery. It is, in fact, a catastrophic blunder that we didn't have any Havezara-108s ready for duty when first landing on Harren. I blame Dave. He accidentally locked the cargo hatches on every single ship carrying them, then slipped and dropped the keys- all of them- into the ocean. Damnit, Dave.

The Havezara-108 Mk.IV is the latest iteration of field howitzer deployed by the Legions. As the name implies, the gun fires shells with a 108mm calibre (we'll just focus on locating the stores of high-explosive shells for now, before worrying about other varieties). Variable charges can be used to adjust range/velocity as needed. The breech is sealed with a patented "Diagonal sliding block",  described as either "best of both worlds" or "worst of both worlds", depending on who you ask. Recoil is managed with a standard hydro-pneumatic system. The carriage is of the split-trail variety, and offers a 36 degree traverse and an elevation of up to 46 degrees. The Mk.III suffered from poor mobility, which is something the Mk.IV focused on fixing, reducing the weight of the carriage where possible, and making it easier to tow.

Of course, these already exist. The fact that picking the locks on the ships carrying them will take an entire design bureau's efforts is a testament to the craftsmanship of Embralish locksmiths, and the mind-boggling incompetence of Dave.

Difficulty: Normal
Result: (5+4)+0=9, Above Average

That damn Dave. If it weren't for his consistent idiocy some might suspect the man of intentional sabotage. Luckily the rest of this expedition's forces aren't so incompetent and we have managed to begin local production of the Havezara to complement the pieces we've recovered.

The Havezara is a staple of Embralish modern warfare. It's a reliable, sturdy 108mm artillery piece capable of firing a 17kg High Explosive shell out to 16 kilometers. The average gun crew is capable of sending out rounds at a rate of 6-7 rounds per minute. The split-tail carriage can be towed thanks to it's rubber-tired wheels - currently this means whatever substandard vehicles we have available. When in transit the barrel of the gun is unsecured and slid down the tail before being locked in place to reduce size of the load. A 10mm gun shield helps to protect the crew from small arms fire and fragmentation from counter-artillery.

Without a military transport vehicle maneuvering the Havezara is somewhat slower than desired thanks to a variety of issues that crop up when using civilian-level equipment (and horses when necessary/possible) in a warzone. Regardless, the piece itself is expected to be very effective when used. It costs 6 Ore to deploy, making it (VERY EXPENSIVE) until we open up some ore mines on the island.


----------------


The first engagements with the Abberans Initharians are right around the corner. You have a single revision to make adjustments to your equipment before taking them onto the battlefield. Good luck!

IT IS NOW THE REVISION PHASE.

Spoiler: Territories (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Resources (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Embrallish Armory (click to show/hide)
Logged

NUKE9.13

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Revision Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #113 on: October 30, 2019, 04:31:25 pm »

A revision:
Quote
Legion Issued Explosives
The Legions have a no-nonsense approach to problems. If there is a thing, and you want there to not be a thing, you blow it up; simple problem, simple solution. Sure, sometimes there's merit to using specialised devices, clever toys cooked up by the nutjobs fine folks in Engineering, but the Legions know they can always fall back on just throwing TNT at a problem until it goes away. As such, quartermasters are instructed to always have a supply of Legion Issued Explosives on hand.
Legion Issued Explosives are... well, they're explosives. Not grenades, although you could light a short fuse and throw them. Not mines, although you can cover them with dirt and wire up a basic pressure plate. Not specialised demolition charges, although enough of them will bring down pretty much anything. Not mining equipment, although they are sufficiently reliable that a seasoned tunneller can deploy them with little concern.

E: A votebox:
Quote from: Votebox
Legion Issued Explosives: (1) NUKE9.13

E2: A bunch of propaganda:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 01:51:18 pm by NUKE9.13 »
Logged
Long Live United Forenia!

Madman198237

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Revision Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2019, 03:56:31 pm »

Quote from: Votebox
Legion Issued Explosives: (2) NUKE9.13, Madman
Logged
We shall make the highest quality of quality quantities of soldiers with quantities of quality.

Jilladilla

  • Bay Watcher
  • Most Sleep Deprived
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Revision Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2019, 04:19:18 pm »

We dawdled long enough.

Quote from: Votebox
Legion Issued Explosives: (3) NUKE9.13, Madman, Jilladilla
Logged

Glory to United Forenia!

If you see a 'Nemonole' on the internet elsewhere, it's probably me

TheFantasticMsFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ckk Ckk
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Revision Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2019, 01:07:54 am »


Quote from: Totebox
Legion Issued Explosives: (4) NUKE9.13, Madman, Jilladilla, TFF
Logged


NUKE9.13

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Revision Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2019, 06:59:46 am »

I edited my long history piece, to remove any suggestions that we might be employing spies, as this is obviously not true, and we wouldn't want to spread false information.
Let me know if you think it needs more pruning, or if it can be shared in the core thread.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Logged
Long Live United Forenia!

Man of Paper

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Strategy Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #118 on: November 03, 2019, 05:07:23 pm »

Revision Phase, Hot Season 1938 AC

Proposal: Legion Issued Explosives
Quote
The Legions have a no-nonsense approach to problems. If there is a thing, and you want there to not be a thing, you blow it up; simple problem, simple solution. Sure, sometimes there's merit to using specialised devices, clever toys cooked up by the nutjobs fine folks in Engineering, but the Legions know they can always fall back on just throwing TNT at a problem until it goes away. As such, quartermasters are instructed to always have a supply of Legion Issued Explosives on hand.
Legion Issued Explosives are... well, they're explosives. Not grenades, although you could light a short fuse and throw them. Not mines, although you can cover them with dirt and wire up a basic pressure plate. Not specialised demolition charges, although enough of them will bring down pretty much anything. Not mining equipment, although they are sufficiently reliable that a seasoned tunneller can deploy them with little concern.

Difficulty: Easy
Result: (1+1)+1=3, Buggy Mess
(While I said you could assume you used preWW2 equipment in places where I mentioned something you may not have, this does not mean you could use the Filler Equipment to revise a whole machine gun into existence. Perhaps I wasn't so clear about that? Remember that Revisions are for Revising. Something of this level is obviously doable (not that it mattered much lol) or I would have said something about it beforehand, I just want to make sure things are clear before someone comes up with revising upper-tier equipment out of thin air. You guys aren't dumb, and I learned quick that you're good at exploits.)

With our advancements with fertilizers we also expanded our knowledge of a variety of potentially volatile chemicals. That knowledge was put to use during the creation of the occasionally-utilized Legion Issued Explosives, or L.I.E. L.I.E. are given to soldiers in a canvas bag with a shoulder strap. The explosives themselves are metal pipes filled with a potent chemical cocktail that will burst should the fuse burn down far enough. And therein lies the first problem. The fuses are placed in the cap of the L.I.Es (which containing a charge of black powder) by hand during set-up, but are slightly too big for the hole, so a soldier might think the fuse has stopped pushing in because it's where it's gotta be when in all reality it's frayed and balled up on itself halfway down.

When the blasting cap is set off, the resulting explosion opens up the metal pipe and causes some amount of fragmentation. While the blast itself isn't actually all that powerful, the chemicals used can be debilitating and even lethal. The previously-concentrated-now-aerosolized-via-explosion cocktail is absorbed through mucus membranes and can cause liquefaction of the affected areas if submitted to extremely high doses. Otherwise it'll just burn pinholes through them. Dispersal is highly unpredictable, so even if that would have been the intended effect it couldn't be counted on in the best of times.

L.I.E. Pipe Bombs come eight in a satchel, and if you're feeling particularly lucky you could attempt to set them all off at once to punch holes in walls and the occasional vehicle if it's timed perfectly. The pack comes at a cost of 4 Ore and 4 Oil, making it (VERY EXPENSIVE).


----------------


Sikari scouts have positively identified a large Initharian force preparing to strike from the north and not long after were fired upon by enemy combatants. The Sikari were able to evade and escape capture before returning to our side of the strait. We have decided to launch an offensive to smother the Initharian threat before it ruins or chances of saving the Empire, and you, as the most knowledgeable of what has been deployed, will be in command. It's do or die.

Note that I forgot to specify that the sea areas are divided into East and West, but it's also not the hardest concept to deliver. Oops.

You are to choose Two Lanes to attack on. You can decide to attack a Pact facility in your territory in lieu of a second sector to attack.

Land Battles may result in either a Win, where you will gain control of 1/3 of the territory as well as a resource node; a Loss, where you will be forced to withdraw and, if defending, lose a resource node; or a Stalemate, where no ground will be gained, though repeated Stalemates will tend to push things in the Attacker's favor as defending forces are whittled down and the attackers can maintain presence in the area.

Sea Battles determine control of a coastal region, with higher levels of dominance over your opponents allowing more sea-based support for the land forces. Territories can go from Contested, where both sides are in heated combat on the waves and minimal land support can be provided, all the way up to Total Control, where the dominating side can provide any support available to land forces from the coast. Attacking a Sea Lane gives the opportunity to increase your control of the area, but defending the sea can be a very easy task, given the right tools...

You are also to assign a resource to a node by specifying what resource to extract/produce in which sector.

Oh, and don't forget to submit your propaganda by posting it in the Core Thread by the end of this phase!

IT IS NOW THE STRATEGY PHASE.

Spoiler: Land Territories (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Sea Territories (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Embrallish Armory (click to show/hide)
Logged

frostgiant

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Mechanized Warfare: Embral Thread / Strategy Phase, 1938 Hot Season
« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2019, 08:49:43 pm »

Quote from: Xobetov
Attack!:
East Seas(1): Frostgiant
Eastern Ice plains (1): Frostgiant

Resource:
Ore on the Mesa's (1): Frostgiant

Leviathan:
East lane (1):Frostgiant
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 20