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[DizzyCrash]

So iv been holding off playing until the interactions are fixed, since last time i playd 3 year wnt by and not a single dwarf made a friendship beyond our opening like few dorfs who all started as friends. This REALLY crippled some of the dynamic interactions in the game since people werent forging bonds, talkng, argueing, interacting all that much.

Now i heard if you disable all work for a dwarf they hang out in there off time but i decided to just wait until the bug is fixed so they develope without firing them from there jobs.

[Fleeting Frames]

It's pretty much the same state it was in 42.06, afaik. However, we understand now how it works better: An idling dwarf will bond with someone they're adjacant to, provided they're orthogonally adjacant to at least one someone.

So giant taverns are bad because the dwarves stand apart. A simple 2xN meeting zone, with chairs and tables to admire and sit on, has been observed to work much better; personal family rooms with no meeting zones working as well for more segregated fort (as the default idle location is their own room if there aren't other zones overriding it). (Note that if you make the zone a tavern, you need to have slack to avoid fps zeroing bug still present when too many people pile into a tiny tavern at once, such as what is seen when you channel 1 tile on embark and place a tavern on that tile. Dwarves will try to aim for something like two dwarves per tile max.)

Of course that will not work either if you give your dwarves so many jobs they're never idle with others. They do need time to speak with others to form relationships and I expect will always need that.

[DizzyCrash]

It's pretty much the same state it was in 42.06, afaik. However, we understand now how it works better: An idling dwarf will bond with someone they're adjacant to, provided they're orthogonally adjacant to at least one someone.

So giant taverns are bad because the dwarves stand apart. A simple 2xN meeting zone, with chairs and tables to admire and sit on, has been observed to work much better; personal family rooms with no meeting zones working as well for more segregated fort (as the default idle location is their own room if there aren't other zones overriding it). (Note that if you make the zone a tavern, you need to have slack to avoid fps zeroing bug still present when too many people pile into a tiny tavern at once, such as what is seen when you channel 1 tile on embark and place a tavern on that tile. Dwarves will try to aim for something like two dwarves per tile max.)

Of course that will not work either if you give your dwarves so many jobs they're never idle with others. They do need time to speak with others to form relationships and I expect will always need that.

Okay is this something he is planning to fix? Or is it working as intended?
If it is fixed do you think it will be addressed in the upcoming viillains update? Or is the steam version going to launch with this bug? Cause i think its a pretty serious bug, the most noticable one at least if your launching to a big audience.

Also i am not sure i understand your instructions, are you saying i should put meeting zones in everyones bedrooms so they sit around and talk and idle in there?

[DizzyCrash]

I could just ask toady if its going to be fixed he is usually really good about responnding.. He once told me how he would make a treant or chimera so i could just mod them in. ( Since he intended to put them in at some point )

[mikekchar]

Basically what that means is that if a dwarf is socialising in the pub and there is someone (anyone) in the tile directly to the north, south, east or west of them, then the dwarf will be able to socialise with anyone who is 1 tile away (even if they are to the NE, NW, SE or SW).  However, even if there is someone to the NE, but there is nobody to the N, E, S, W, then they won't socialise with them and they won't build their friendship status.

Several strategies to use this fact have been discussed.  For example, if there is a chair and a table to the north of a tavern tile, then someone might eat (which takes a long time) in the chair, which means that anyone socialising in the tavern space will be able to get the benefit.  I've been thinking of putting a dormitory in there because dwarfs spend a long time sleeping.  The other idea I had was somehow setting up a workshop (maybe a still???) so that there is usually a dwarf working in a specific tile and anyone socialising to the N, S, E, W would be able to gain friendships to anyone near them.

Anyway, Toady has said that he will fix the problem, but you're going to have to wait a long time I think.  He just spent 6 month (or more?) working on the villain's arc for WorldGen.  He's *just* started adventure mode, so I can't imagine he'll release anything for at least another 6 months.

[PatrikLundell]

Commenting on mikekchar's answer: Toady has done some minor tweaking in this Villains arc (as it's turned out to be: the last release was made a little over a year ago) such as a variable age span in which people are eligible for marriage, based on their age, and intends to do more, but probably not until the Villains release is done. I'm hoping for it to be tackled in the bug fix period after the emergency bug fixes once the first Villains release is done.
Adventure mode started in June, and he finished transitioning of world gen functionality to that mode early July. There's a fair bit to do there (mounts, in progress, structures (necro and company fortresses at least), plus adventurer involvement in and investigation of villainy.
After that, it's time for fortress mode, which means the fortress being a target for plots, detection and foiling of plots, and the ability of the fortress overseer to engage in scheming (that's probably the part that's most likely to subjected to cuts due to an uncomfortably long process extending into a painfully extended one, I suspect: there's some pressure to get to the END of the accessibility stuff for the Premium version).
How long will it take? mikekchar came up with an estimate. My estimates keep failing (I originally thought the release would arrive before Christmas last year, after just a small tinkering with Villainy)...

Also note that the current version will eventually crash if you engage in raiding due to an equipment corruption bug.

[Fleeting Frames]

@DizzyCrash: No.

I'm saying that bedrooms, by themselves, already are dwarves' default idling places if they don't have other things (taverns, temples, statue gardens, etc.) to pull them away from them, and that others have used this fact to make segregated family compounds.

You can even use four screw pumps surrounding an idling tile if you want. Locking two in a room is also still effective for pairing up particular two dolls you make kiss each other, but now you know how room them together better.


So, it's quite possible to get friendships, marriages, grudges....Or almost no relationships at all as you observed, depending on how one setups things. For those who played in .34 days and want dwarves who don't know each other for mental stability, ability to choose between the two is convenient.


The inconvenience is for those who want grand taverns, full of beauty and wealth, with plenty of dance floor, observed by all, yet also want relationships. There is a trick with disabling the meeting zone part without unpausing after one defines the zone as a location as to not make it the default idle area that pulls dwarves from everywhere, but large dances and dance floors are unavoidably going to result in hardly meeting anyone.


Also, just like PatrikLundell suggested, I've also built my beds in the main dining room and gotten pregnancies and marriages in 42.06 3 years ago, in one of my first few forts before joining bay12. Though I did that to maximize room value (as the room value penalty is applied just once), not  for relationships.

The main issue with doing that is, again, beauty. And greater danger if visitors go hostile, I suppose.


As for planning to fix, I do think there's an open issue on bugtracker somewhere...8584. I think there might be another one on "dwarves don't seek out friends when lonely"; dwarves not fulfilling most their needs (all other than drink/sleep/eat/clothes/Tasks!) is widely considered a bug at least. 44.11 Stress and Psyche thread is a long read that considers both this, above and other factors.

For fixing that particular behaviour yourself, I'd say feel free to hack it in. I don't think Toady One is going to fix that in, spitballing, next four years, at least, provided "seek someone out" from corruption isn't generalized for all tasks (0,5 for villain arc, 1 for steam, 2,5 for mythgen). The upcoming small changes mean, as far as I've read, that it is a little easier to set up pairs between dwarves and that you can get kids out of wedlock, so probably sooner than before - no mention has been made on friendships.


But this is lot of years without DF and lot of talk as well. For bettering your own understanding, I recommend just making quick and dirty tiny sealed-off forts in 44.09 (less emotionally fragile) with variety of different taverns each but with same dwarves, running the game for year(s) at 4k+ fps, and watching which ones result in no relationships versus lots of acquitances versus few strong friendships and marriages.

[DizzyCrash]

What change to the game causes this? It sees like toady tried to alter the mechanic of how dwarves interact and it ddnt work properly... I am left to wonder why not just remove the code until he gets around to fixing it? Cause once it gets a global steam release it could really hurt the games performance... Though i did read someplace he was going to try and clear up the most immediate and devastating glitches before the steam release so the games the most stable it can possibly be.
I do hope its somepoint this year and not 4 years from now.. I would be in my 30s!

But than again this glitches are nothing compared to some of the early day bugs, we once went 2 years or so where you literally could not access dwarven, elven or goblin city types, only by manually switching every city type to human could you even play the game on adventure mode.. Now THAT was broken. This is just an inconvenience haha.

[DizzyCrash]

So as far as i understand it, if i make a tavern with 1 long table and chairs all along it, it should work?

ooooooooooooo
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Like this? Than they will all be sitting next to eachother from east to west and talking right? 
o being chars and = being tables.

[PatrikLundell]

So as far as i understand it, if i make a tavern with 1 long table and chairs all along it, it should work?

ooooooooooooo
==========
ooooooooooooo

Like this? Than they will all be sitting next to eachother from east to west and talking right? 
o being chars and = being tables.

No. You've gotten it wrong as dorfs don't share tables, so a better design would be:

TTTT
CCCC
CCCC
TTTT
as each dorf could potentially sit adjacent to 3 others. However, my fortresses have used such a design for a long time (the advice for designing it that way is older than the relationships changes, which involved the removal of parties), and there are rarely any relations except between the starting 7, those subjected to Nuptial Encouragement Treatment, and random citizens/residents and random visitors.

I suspect being next to each other doesn't help unless at least one of them is socializing. Basically you'd need taverns that are small enough that the average number of patrons is making it about a quarter full or so, if I've understood the discussions correctly (I haven't tried it out myself, as I've run low pop fortresses with a fair bit of a dance floors and a fair number of visitors).
Also note that visitors soak up friendship points if they're let into the tavern: you can create taverns that don't accept visitors, but not taverns purely for visitors (there are ways to block citizens/residents from going to "open for all" taverns, but they're tedious).

[Fleeting Frames]

Skip the second chair line, yeah - I meant just CT, tiled forever, with both chair and table being designated as meeting area (so that when dwarf eats on chair, another stands on top of table). Patrik's design would also work, as long as the zone is 2xN.

As non-tavern meeting zones work as well for marriages, I suspect it is more that tavern socializing is counted closer to No Job for the matters of relationships rather than "Socialize" having any bonus. From comments by others (my test forts obviously don't have high pop), dwarves will stack up to 2 per tile, so rather than quarter over 100% isn't a bad idea.

Either way, you could say the tavern introduction to the game causes this, yeah. Instead of just standing on chairs, they move into wide open spaces, where they're not near anybody; and players are encouraged to make such spaces as well, and make them attractive by how default the meeting area is turned on for location zones.



Ultimately, it's a question of whether you prefer relationships or dances on floor murals. And despite having written a script for first, I think I like to see the bodies hit the dancefloor more. A grand tavern/dining room has always been a central design element of my forts; to reduce it to just handful of tiles...Rankles, even as it reminds me of other small yet effective things, like this water trap, or vjek's minimal four-tile goblin melter of ^%%~ (pressure plate on downstair), or of a minecart bouncing between two ramps/rollers, or a single water trench with fb extract.


...Maybe I should try to think a way to visualize present and new friendships, OTOH. Might have to be plugin even if it could be done in lua due fps effect; TeyoEwe had at the end just perceptible delay when checking for marriage matches between 147 dwarves (done slightly inefficiently by considering every other dwarf for every dwarf), Gloomdiamonds was worse, and it'd be dozen times worse in that 500 dwarf fortress fps test fortress mentioned recently. Of course, to get every dwarf to have hundreds of relationships is probably not going to happen in your typical fort, but one who went for this wouldn't make a typical one and might have 200 immortal necromancers socializing forever with 200 visitors in 3x3 non-location meeting area.

[DizzyCrash]

So as far as i understand it, if i make a tavern with 1 long table and chairs all along it, it should work?

ooooooooooooo
==========
ooooooooooooo

Like this? Than they will all be sitting next to eachother from east to west and talking right? 
o being chars and = being tables.

No. You've gotten it wrong as dorfs don't share tables, so a better design would be:

TTTT
CCCC
CCCC
TTTT
as each dorf could potentially sit adjacent to 3 others. However, my fortresses have used such a design for a long time (the advice for designing it that way is older than the relationships changes, which involved the removal of parties), and there are rarely any relations except between the starting 7, those subjected to Nuptial Encouragement Treatment, and random citizens/residents and random visitors.

I suspect being next to each other doesn't help unless at least one of them is socializing. Basically you'd need taverns that are small enough that the average number of patrons is making it about a quarter full or so, if I've understood the discussions correctly (I haven't tried it out myself, as I've run low pop fortresses with a fair bit of a dance floors and a fair number of visitors).
Also note that visitors soak up friendship points if they're let into the tavern: you can create taverns that don't accept visitors, but not taverns purely for visitors (there are ways to block citizens/residents from going to "open for all" taverns, but they're tedious).

huh.. What was the last update before this glitch? I assume that means that if i roll back to an older upate i will lose alot of really cool stuff...

This is very frustrating, i like to have plenty of places to hang out in my fortresses and make things look nice, I like to have arenas and churches and lots of meating areas... But unless i have just one zone or them all to sit and talk nobody will socialize interact. I miss fist fights breaking out without going bersrk, arguements,  bonding, and generally interesting interactions.

[PatrikLundell]

0.40.24 was the last one having parties, I think, so you'd miss out on a lot (including some new game breaking bugs: I think 0.40.24 didn't have any significant ones while the ones thereafter have them).

In my fortresses I've tried to run the year on a cycle with spring = agriculture, summer = fruit harvest, autumn = catch up, and winter = rest & recreation (not infrequently broken by the need to deal with and clean up after gobbo sieges).
With such a design it might be possible to have a large tavern active during 3/4 of the year (mainly frequented by eaters and visitors, so few important interactions would happen anyway), and then switch to a small one for R&R. Note that I haven't tried that, though.

I don't think a friendship progression monitor tool would have to be a plugin for performance reasons: As far as I can see, all you need is to scan all the citizens (+ residents optionally) regularly and record their relationship lists. Once the first list has been collected, the subsequent scans would compare the new value against the old one (ignoring relations to visitors), one old data set against each old one. If the lists are in Unit Id order you can easily handle death/absence as well as new ones (but note that new entrants can show up anywhere in the Unit Id range). The tricky part is probably to determine when to display progress and what to display, as displaying any single point change since the last scan will probably be too much. If you'd want to keep the data you'd have to store it into a file the script reads on startup (or into the game's structures, but I've never dealt with that), Whether you'd want changes to be recorded into the same file of have the start file as a baseline depends on the purpose. In most cases you'd get two entries for each improvement, and you can either process only the improved results to prune it, or elect to show all of it, which would catch the oddball asymmetric relationships (that probably aren't as even those can progress to mutual lover ones).

[Fleeting Frames]

If you want more fistfights, tantrums and unhappiness, 44.10 to 44.12 has that. Being given alcohol by tavern keepers also seems to make them more common if personality is suitable, but that has the risk of drowning dwarves. Then again, so have fistfights.

It's not like this "glitch" wasn't present before - overseers actively worked to separate dwarves and keep them busy. While I didn't play while they were in the game, as I understand them parties at the table are very similar to tiny meeting area one Socializes! in, but without the Socializing tasks.

Yeah, I like grand crutches too, but dwarves will spread out and thus not interact with anyone in them. Maybe non-meeting temple and 3x3 q-'r'oom designation surrounding a statue would work for making them appear in a small pocket? Haven't tested whether they gain relationship points while praying, though.

@PatrikLundell: On review, I rescind my former position and agree with you; part of my code checks grudges - that is, looks at every relationship an unit has - both ways, for each unit (in addition to iterating over personalities and looking into historical data). So just relationship check would use something like less than half a % of barely perceptible delay in mountainhome status fort.

Data tracking all relationships over time longer than last comparison and recording them is then possible - though I'd say the default recording would have to be in world data, as that is more compatible with killing the process. That's going to lead to dummy hfunit proliferation and slowdown if using persist-table for that; writing your own version might be more efficient though; thus maybe not save every result and only touch it once a week.

[DizzyCrash]

I wonder if there are any tools in DF hack that lets m set my dwarves relationships with eachother?