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[scourge728]

ptw

[SixOfSpades]

But I can't really support messenger pigeons because realistically the chance of an adventurer encountering one during play is way too low and "intercepting" it is firmly in the "not gonna happen" category.

That's only half of their in-game value--with the other half naturally being Fort mode air-mail. Of course, I'm among the camp that feels the vast majority of mail should come & go with the trading caravan, liaison, and other possible ground travelers, but the very "not gonna happen" quality that you mention is precisely what would make carrier pigeons even more appealing than usual: They would grant the ability to send/receive messages during sieges.

But as for the "not gonna happen" quality itself: Grounded archers should indeed have a non-zero chance to hit a flying bird, with the odds of course dependent on altitude, range, and if the archers in question even consider the target to be worth an arrow. So unless you've located your dovecote fairly close to where enemies can gather, you should be fine. A better bet, from an Adventurer's standpoint, is to let predators do the work for you. If you see a pigeon leave (or approach) your enemy's fort, watch & see if a hawk takes it in mid-flight. If so, follow to where they made impact, and check the kill for a message. Granted, I fully agree that this is an extremely unlikely scenario to occur purely by chance . . . but if you should just happen to be carrying a fully trained hunting falcon, the odds would increase dramatically. (Of course, elven besiegers would be quite likely to have falcons of their own.)

[Strik3r]

But I can't really support messenger pigeons because realistically the chance of an adventurer encountering one during play is way too low and "intercepting" it is firmly in the "not gonna happen" category.

That's only half of their in-game value--with the other half naturally being Fort mode air-mail. Of course, I'm among the camp that feels the vast majority of mail should come & go with the trading caravan, liaison, and other possible ground travelers, but the very "not gonna happen" quality that you mention is precisely what would make carrier pigeons even more appealing than usual: They would grant the ability to send/receive messages during sieges.

But as for the "not gonna happen" quality itself: Grounded archers should indeed have a non-zero chance to hit a flying bird, with the odds of course dependent on altitude, range, and if the archers in question even consider the target to be worth an arrow. So unless you've located your dovecote fairly close to where enemies can gather, you should be fine. A better bet, from an Adventurer's standpoint, is to let predators do the work for you. If you see a pigeon leave (or approach) your enemy's fort, watch & see if a hawk takes it in mid-flight. If so, follow to where they made impact, and check the kill for a message. Granted, I fully agree that this is an extremely unlikely scenario to occur purely by chance . . . but if you should just happen to be carrying a fully trained hunting falcon, the odds would increase dramatically. (Of course, elven besiegers would be quite likely to have falcons of their own.)

Okay, i concede: Taking down messenger pigeons with a falcon would be awesome. Falconry in general would be awesome.

[GoblinCookie]

There will be other ways to bring down messenger pigeons, you could fly up and snatch them out of the sky or you could use magic to capture or kill them, once magic is a thing. 

In any case there might be some value in following a messenger pigeon to find the location of the being it is being sent to.

[SixOfSpades]

In any case there might be some value in following a messenger pigeon to find the location of the being it is being sent to.

Clarification: Barring some great deviation from reality (such as might occur with magic), homing animals cannot be sent to a being, only to a location--the same location from where they were shipped, which they regard as their home. While learning these locations might be of interest to an adventurer, it's far more likely that they're just nearby well-established sites, and as such would almost certainly be common knowledge.

[Strik3r]

There will be other ways to bring down messenger pigeons, you could fly up and snatch them out of the sky or you could use magic to capture or kill them, once magic is a thing. 

In any case there might be some value in following a messenger pigeon to find the location of the being it is being sent to.

yeah, but the game should have falconry in it. It'd be at least as good of a feature as messenger pigeons.

[voliol]

This discussion might be more or less finished, but I’d like to add that no pigeons of any kind currently exist in vanilla Dwarf Fortress. While this might be an oversight/they simply weren’t interested in adding yet another mundane bird, it could also mean that pigeons are being put on-hold until the inclusion of messenger animals.

Or at least that is one method of wishful thinking.

[GoblinCookie]

In any case there might be some value in following a messenger pigeon to find the location of the being it is being sent to.

Clarification: Barring some great deviation from reality (such as might occur with magic), homing animals cannot be sent to a being, only to a location--the same location from where they were shipped, which they regard as their home. While learning these locations might be of interest to an adventurer, it's far more likely that they're just nearby well-established sites, and as such would almost certainly be common knowledge.

Specific characters live in sites, the messenger pigeon is sent to a site in which specific people live.  By following the pigeon that a certain character set loose, the player can determine that someone is in communication with a certain group of people.  Among other this it would allow the player to tell who is a spy/traitor.  The player knows where the sites *are* which is why it works, the direction the released pigeon travels in reveals where it is going is not somewhere said person ought to be communicating with.

This discussion might be more or less finished, but I’d like to add that no pigeons of any kind currently exist in vanilla Dwarf Fortress. While this might be an oversight/they simply weren’t interested in adding yet another mundane bird, it could also mean that pigeons are being put on-hold until the inclusion of messenger animals.

Or at least that is one method of wishful thinking.

I hope they aren't just considered vermin.

[SixOfSpades]

By following the pigeon that a certain character set loose, the player can determine that someone is in communication with a certain group of people.  . . .  the direction the released pigeon travels in reveals where it is going is not somewhere said person ought to be communicating with.

Well, the ability to actually follow a messenger pigeon in real-time implies precisely the sort of travel abilities that would make messenger pigeons obsolete. But let's say you're right, and things are easy: The pigeon's flight is straight & easy to follow with the eye, you have a telescope with which to keep it in view for a good while, there are no trees or hills to obstruct your sight, and the Bad Guy Site^TM is the only place in that direction where the pigeon could be going. Then yes, that would prove that Suspected Spy is collaborating with the Bad Guys. (Your first clue would be that Suspected Spy kept his own group of messenger pigeons, which he insisted on keeping separate from the pigeons owned by the fort proper.) Interestingly, a clever Suspected Spy and/or Bad Guys would actually swap pigeons in secret, so that the fort's mayor writes a note & attaches it to a pigeon that she thinks is trained to fly to the Mountainhome. Instead, it homes to the Bad Guy Site, allowing them to read (and possibly alter) the message before (optionally) tying it to a pigeon that is hankering to return to the Mountainhome. Depending on the relative locations of the three sites, the 2nd pigeon might reach the capital with no noticeable delay.

I hope they aren't just considered vermin.

Well, all of the other pet-type birds currently are, so it doesn't look good. But Toady could almost certainly add a new category, for animals that are still too small to trigger traps but at least can breed normally now.

[GoblinCookie]

Well, the ability to actually follow a messenger pigeon in real-time implies precisely the sort of travel abilities that would make messenger pigeons obsolete. But let's say you're right, and things are easy: The pigeon's flight is straight & easy to follow with the eye, you have a telescope with which to keep it in view for a good while, there are no trees or hills to obstruct your sight, and the Bad Guy Site^TM is the only place in that direction where the pigeon could be going. Then yes, that would prove that Suspected Spy is collaborating with the Bad Guys. (Your first clue would be that Suspected Spy kept his own group of messenger pigeons, which he insisted on keeping separate from the pigeons owned by the fort proper.) Interestingly, a clever Suspected Spy and/or Bad Guys would actually swap pigeons in secret, so that the fort's mayor writes a note & attaches it to a pigeon that she thinks is trained to fly to the Mountainhome. Instead, it homes to the Bad Guy Site, allowing them to read (and possibly alter) the message before (optionally) tying it to a pigeon that is hankering to return to the Mountainhome. Depending on the relative locations of the three sites, the 2nd pigeon might reach the capital with no noticeable delay.

Yes it is difficult to follow a pigeon, which is why they would use pigeons in the first place.  There is however the potential that the player can in fact fly as fast as a pigeon, or use magic to either track the pigeon or to fly themselves; or read the actual message on the pigeons foot.

However you don't even need to follow the pigeon all the way, only tell what direction it is traveling in as it leaves the site, provided you saw the person attach the message to the pigeon.  Depending upon the general geographical layout of the world it may not be enough to provide certainty of guilt but it certainly provides a pointer as to who is suspicious and warrants further investigation.  It is suspicious to have a pigeon that flies in the general direction of a necromancer's tower and if the only site behind said tower is an irrelevant small village then we can give a pretty good odds that the individual sending the message is a spy, even if the small theoretical possibility they are sending the message to the village exists. 

[Azerty]

Could we consider other animals to do this?

I bet there's other birds to use in the air and bats to be used in caves. We could even use animals sich as seahorses to carry messages across the seas!

[Shonai_Dweller]

Could we consider other animals to do this?

I bet there's other birds to use in the air and bats to be used in caves. We could even use animals sich as seahorses to carry messages across the seas!

I think it would be a major fail for Dwarf Fortress to introduce messenger animals but inexplicably restrict them across the vast spectrum of possible fantasy worlds to being pigeons. Kind of unthinkable that Toady would ignore a world of fantasy literature and do that really.

[SixOfSpades]

There is however the potential that the player can in fact fly as fast as a pigeon, or use magic to either track the pigeon or to fly themselves; or read the actual message on the pigeons foot.

As I said, "precisely the sort of travel abilities that would make messenger pigeons obsolete." Whatever magical abilities that your Adventurer has, it's a fair bet that any good-sized settlement that you visit is already going to boast a local with comparable powers--meaning they don't need you. A world where magic is the answer to everything might not be much fun to play.

Could we consider other animals to do this?

There's at least one previous thread that mentioned the pros & cons of other animal types, including bats, ravens, owls, cats, rats, dogs, wolves, penguins, reindeer, sharks, hawks, crocodiles, etc.

Seahorses are a no-go: They're very weak swimmers that can't defend themselves, are too small to carry much of a message, and I don't think they even migrate. A good messenger creature is:
- Intelligent (enough to not get lost)
- Homesick (from a species with known navigational abilities that can be turned into homing tendencies)
- Fast (gets the news there quickly)
- Versatile (can traverse a wide variety of types of terrain)
- A predator, or otherwise able to fend off threats along the way
- Comfortable acting on their own (not a member of a species that always stays in large groups)
- Monogamous (being part of a mated pair increases the desire to return to their mate)

[GoblinCookie]

I think it would be a major fail for Dwarf Fortress to introduce messenger animals but inexplicably restrict them across the vast spectrum of possible fantasy worlds to being pigeons. Kind of unthinkable that Toady would ignore a world of fantasy literature and do that really.

That is why I proposed we use a tag, plus consider both flying and walking creatures mechanically.  Granted we probably could have swimming creatures once boats are in.

As I said, "precisely the sort of travel abilities that would make messenger pigeons obsolete." Whatever magical abilities that your Adventurer has, it's a fair bet that any good-sized settlement that you visit is already going to boast a local with comparable powers--meaning they don't need you. A world where magic is the answer to everything might not be much fun to play.

You are right, assuming such abilities are ubiquitous.  There is still the scenario where most people in the world do not have those abilities, but the adventurer happens to one of the few that does; this is basically the normal fantasy setting because a world where magic does everything isn't any fun to play (or rather isn't relatable to real-life but that is not your opinion). 

However there is no need for any magic to simply follow a specific messenger pigeon direction of travel in order to determine the direction of it's likely destination.  This can be used to track down a spy, but it can also be used to track down those the spy is working for even more effectively because it is not such a long shot. 

It is interesting here that in real-life pigeons do not always fly in a straight line towards their destination, but they presumably would in this game.

[xZippy]

I like this. Maybe the goblins can have their own mutated version of a flight messenger.