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[isitanos]

cf https://steamcommunity.com/app/975370/discussions/0/3362406825536876859

RULES FOR STEAM DISCUSSIONS
No personal attacks or harassment. Such behaviors include – but are not limited to – offensive actions or comments (gender, sexual orientation, disability, appearance, body size, race, religion, language, socioeconomic standing, or otherwise), sexually demeaning comments, aggressive exclusionary behavior, etc.
No spamming/trolling. Don't say things to purposefully be inflammatory.
Political conversation only leads to trouble. Please refrain from discussion that can come off as divisive.
Respect all personal boundaries and members.
Breaking these rules can result in the thread being locked, deleted, or a ban, depending on the action.

Am I the only one thinking that this can't end well?

The only similar rule I can find in Toady's forum guidelines is "bigoted language is frowned upon". He doesn't try to shut down all forms of political discussion, and I know by experience that you can strongly disagree with him on topics dear to him like keeping Dwarf Fortress closed-source and he won't auto-ban you. All in all I gained a lot of respect for the way he expresses his point of view and manages this community.

aggressive exclusionary behavior - anytime where someone's suggestion is shunned by a majority could be interpreted as that. Say I propose a dumb idea over and over, people will eventually tell me to shut up. It doesn't feel nice but is a good reality check, and this kind of rule just invites switching to victim mode so you can keep getting attention like a spoiled child, and get revenge on those who "rejected" your idea.

discussion that can come off as divisive - so, ban any kind of discussion on important matters people can be passionate about then? This is so hilariously out-of-sync with the divisive stuff that's in the game, too. I dunno, I'm pretty sure someone somewhere can be offended by cannibalism, or perhaps has some horrible first-hand experience of it.

Respect all personal boundaries - basic sociology proves this is an equation without a solution.

Honestly Toady I think you made friends with the wrong people. Judging from these forum rules and other echoes I've had, Kitfox Games seem to be of the "offend no one" school, which just ends up establishing the tyranny of oversensitive people over everyone else (Armok forbid vegans hear about thermonuclear catsplosion). Whereas you don't tolerate full-on hate speech but you're not adverse to discussion, and you put the stuff you want in your game including foul language and all manners of grisly stuff, without caring that someone somewhere on the planet might have boundaries that are stepped on because the elves he identifies with are being brutally butchered in a game and sadistic community members are laughing in a thread about it.

[voliol]

I might be uninformed, but aren’t these the general Steam forum rules? It it is, there isn’t much Kitfox can do about them. Either way let’s hope for the best outcome, and remember that in the case the Steam forums do turn into this tyranny you are describing, players can seek amnesty here, on the other forum.

[PlumpHelmetMan]

I also think you're blowing the meaning of these rules out of proportion. Most of them don't seem like bad rules to have per se, in and of themselves, at least not for the kind of atmosphere the Steam forums tend to have. I mean if these rules were to be set for the bay12 community I could definitely see your concern, but let's face it: few online communities seem to be able to function quite the way bay12 does. We're rather unique, all things considered. And as voliol says, people who don't like the Steam forums can always be directed here.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Dwarf Fortress forum is right here. Rules haven't changed, rules most likely won't change. Did you notice, Reddit has different rules too, and yet they miraculously exist.

[isitanos]

I also think you're blowing the meaning of these rules out of proportion. Most of them don't seem like bad rules to have per se, in and of themselves, at least not for the kind of atmosphere the Steam forums tend to have. I mean if these rules were to be set for the bay12 community I could definitely see your concern, but let's face it: few online communities seem to be able to function quite the way bay12 does. We're rather unique, all things considered. And as voliol says, people who don't like the Steam forums can always be directed here.

Hopefully I am wrong, but given the language used and the fact that aggressive banning has reportedly already started, I fear they're more interested to use DF as a platform to push their political agendas than anything else. If this is the case, it'd be very unfortunate that the public image of DF on the world's biggest PC gaming platform be managed by them.

[Superdorf]

Just out of curiosity-- is Kitfox doing the moderating? Or are they bringing in other moderators?

I fully expect the Steam forums to become toxic and over-moderated. Nevertheless, I'm not worried. The Bay12 forums will continue as normal; any folk that come here from the Steam forums will be speedily integrated into the existing community. We're special that way.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I also think you're blowing the meaning of these rules out of proportion. Most of them don't seem like bad rules to have per se, in and of themselves, at least not for the kind of atmosphere the Steam forums tend to have. I mean if these rules were to be set for the bay12 community I could definitely see your concern, but let's face it: few online communities seem to be able to function quite the way bay12 does. We're rather unique, all things considered. And as voliol says, people who don't like the Steam forums can always be directed here.

Hopefully I am wrong, but given the language used and the fact that aggressive banning has reportedly already started, I fear they're more interested to use DF as a platform to push their political agendas than anything else. If this is the case, it'd be very unfortunate that the public image of DF on the world's biggest PC gaming platform be managed by them.

Political agendas?
You're not about to launch the "Kitfox has contractually forced Toady into adding transgender snail people" conspiracy theory rubbish here are you?

Forums have rules. General gaming platforms with millions of worldwide readers have stricter rules than Bay12 and it's gang of Dwarf Fortress obsessives. Nobody who actually posts here cares what Steam's rules are. Nobody ever will.

[anewaname]

Steam's rules seem normal for their line of business.... the rules are legally worded to allow for the "Give 'em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves" tactic. Those rules give Steam moderators the option to ignore minor offenders, to warn median offenders, and to persecute major offenders.  This is how it works for most businesses where money is exchanged and where the approval of the masses, and their parents, is important for business.

I would be unaware of any aggressive banning that may be occurring and would enjoy the gossip, what are the details?

[Meph]

Just my two cents: I've been disagreeing left and right (in a reasonable manner) with Mike Mayday, the mighty Toady One himself, and Tanya from Kitfox about all kinds of topics. Usually art/design related and "X wouldn't be a good idea" and I haven't been banned, kicked out or turned into a transgender snail person. As far as I know at least.

Then again, I have no experience with the Steam forum. Can't even post there.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Tanya posted this further down in the rules thread on steam in response to others complaining:

We're not interested in debating the nature of divisive with you. Some posts on kitten-skinning would in fact need deletion -- others would be in the spirit of discussion. Considering others' feelings doesn't ruin fun, unless your fun is being inconsiderate.

tl;dr: We trust our mods and their judgement, and Tarn doesn't have time to moderate another forum, so if you would prefer to stay at Bay12 that's fine.

Take it as you will, sounds perfect to me.

[George_Chickens]

To clear up any confusion for people who don't know about the drama, the initial moderation drama was neither Toady One nor Kitfox. Steam's moderators declared the place as unmoderated, came in, and mass banned people, some of which who were not breaking any real rules. This is the norm for Steam, but people took it that Toady was doing a mass ban for some reason.

The "transgender snail" stuff comes from Toady saying he wants to revamp the gender system, to allow for more realistic creatures, like snails. Some people spread misinformation and said that he was being "forced to add tranny dwarfs" by Kitfox.

In general, my attitude is if you can't discuss terrifying cat murder, it isn't a DF forum.

[Craftsdwarf boi]

Or mermaid/elf genocide for the lulz

[Wannabehero]

Wannabehero cancels store item in stockpile: writing mod for transgender snail people


In relevance to the discussion, steam forums are gonna be steam forums.  They will moderate by the rules dictated by the platform, as will Bay12.  Bay12 is my favorite forum in the whole wide internet, because of the general congeniality and positivity of the community, which I attribute to our shared love of this game.

Introduction of a wider audience via steam release invites a broader scope of personalities and potential for conflict on the board, but I suspect things will normalize once players with similar passion as our own stick around, and the other's do not.  The steam forum with either normalize with that population, with the moderators adapting to it as well, or if things remain in conflict with platform rules, then the steam forumers may migrate to Bay12 instead.

[Urlance Woolsbane]

I don't see any problems. They are, like most forum rules, designed as catch-alls for egregiously bad behavior.
There's nothing particular enough to act as license for an abusive moderator. Such an individual would not, I suspect, need much of an excuse in the first place. Just steer clear of obviously contentious real-world topics and you'll probably be fine.

[ZM5]

To clear up any confusion for people who don't know about the drama, the initial moderation drama was neither Toady One nor Kitfox. Steam's moderators declared the place as unmoderated, came in, and mass banned people, some of which who were not breaking any real rules. This is the norm for Steam, but people took it that Toady was doing a mass ban for some reason.

The "transgender snail" stuff comes from Toady saying he wants to revamp the gender system, to allow for more realistic creatures, like snails. Some people spread misinformation and said that he was being "forced to add tranny dwarfs" by Kitfox.

In general, my attitude is if you can't discuss terrifying cat murder, it isn't a DF forum.

I think people were referring to this series of tweets in regards to the "trans dwarves" issue. Nothing in it about snails, the person explicitly asks about dwarves. Of course the response could just be getting the "muh representation" people to back off, but who knows - doesn't seem anything to do with kitfox, though I can see why people thought it would since it came after the announcement. The "the fortress is for everyone" blog posts that popped up (co-written by Zach's wife IIRC) also didn't exactly help with the general perception of the issue being a result of some behind-the-scenes push.