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[TricMagic]

I believe his line of attack is that you had a one-shot kill. So not really. But there is also your argument day 1 that you had something for town. What did you do last night that would make you say that?

[Persus13]

if I assume Kit tells the truth of his Watch result, Mafia didn't even target me last night. Had NQT actually claimed day 1 that they killed them and used that to move the game along in scumhunting, that would be a town move. It would also draw fire away from me as well.

My main question is why no-one else targeted me. It doesn't make much sense.

Beyond that, why are we going to have Dues and Persus just lynch someone with only two votes? Is anyone on who can turn it to a 3 vote on NQT?

I think you're overthinking why no one targeted you. People may have been blocked, redirected, decided not to visit you because they felt it was an obvious move, etc. Also, thanks for reminding me that my vote is still on RGU. Also also, can you answer my previous question.

Because right now, I  think that Hector13's case against NQT is ridiculous, and based on a bunch of WIFOM than anything NQT actually did. Daykilling Spin was a good move, because it meant we bypassed D1 and went straight to D2 without losing anyone except IcyTea (which wasn't NQT's fault anyway). Whereas this latest case and the whole business with Kit earlier just feels like Hector manufacturing reasons for someone to be scum rather than actually looking for scum.

NQT: What's all this about you being "buddies" with Persus13? What information were you trying to get out of him D1?

NQT hasn't answered this, but if you look at the Xylbot role list and use Control F with BUDDY1, you'll see a bunch of roles that do X with a buddy. For instance:

Bruce Wayne (town; super-rare; 5+ players): Right now, you don't have any powers, but if BUDDY1 dies you will become a Batman.

But seriously, if you have mechanics questions, check the role list first, and it should give you the answers you want.

Your votes on D1 were, in order, a player with a guilty result, a player who voted the player who gave the guilty result, and a pressure vote on an inactive player, where your vote rested for the remainder of the day. How is an inactive player more likely to be scum than a player who was voting against a claimed guaranteed sane inspect?

How is a player who most likely daykilled Mafia more likely to be scum than a player who voted against a claimed guaranteed scum inspect? And before you say how we know he daykilled Mafia, What would NQT have to gain from fakeclaiming something that's so easy to be counterclaimed? I've never seen Mafia claim something so obvious as a day kill before. At least with night kills there's more ambiguity because actions all resolve at the end of the night.

[TricMagic]

NQT.

[Persus13]

NQT.

What part of Hector's argument do you find convincing?

[hector13]

Hector, it's confirmed I killed a mafia player: Max was mafia and he's definitely dead and no one has counterclaimed. It's not in dispute except by you.

Why is killing a confirmed scum a waste of a kill??? It allowed players to use the rest of the day for productive scum hunting. As it happened I didn't think NT was mafia (and they weren't) but fortunately they were a SK and the day led two anti-town players being killed. That's an objectively good outcome from my daykill. What would have been a waste is holding on to it and then dying in the night, or using it on someone I had an incorrect hunch about and ending up with a dead townie. It seems like you're annoyed that I played differently to how you would played it.

A different tack then: I killed MaxSpin. By your logic, I am now confirmed town.

Prove I didn’t. By my logic, it’s a good fakeclaim.

When did I say killing confirmed scum was a waste of a kill? I said you choosing to use a 1-shot based on Tric’s claim meant you trusted him. Please tell me how that means I think you wasted it, bearing in mind inference /=/ implication.

Why ignore my other question? What was the trick up your sleeve that you evidently felt was better than a guaranteed sane alignment inspect?

I’m not annoyed you play it differently than me. I’m wondering why you played it the way you said you did, as I remain unconvinced that comes from a town perspective. Further, You’ve done little in the way of hunting, why is it so bizarre I choose the most significant thing you claim you’ve done to pressure and read you?

PPE:

Persusyou serious bro? Tell me how my counterclaim proves NQT didn’t do it. If anyone else counterclaimed, would that prove NQT didn’t do it? What would it tell you if a counterclaim was made?

Ignore the claiming business for a moment; has NQT done anything to show he’s town to you?

What whole business with Kit?

I have never once said killing MaxSpin was a bad idea. I said I believe NQT is fakeclaiming, because it’s super easy towncred, as evidenced by nobody giving a second thought about it until now. As evidenced by you not thinking he could be fakeclaiming, and that he isn’t scum as a result.

Consider that from the other side: what would I gain as scum from throwing any sort of shade on an apparently confirmed mafiakiller?

Have you ever seen a mafia bus another member of the mafia? How is claiming a daykill performed on mafia any different?

Are you worried about what sort of BUDDY NQT is with you?

[Persus13]

Persusyou serious bro? Tell me how my counterclaim proves NQT didn’t do it. If anyone else counterclaimed, would that prove NQT didn’t do it? What would it tell you if a counterclaim was made?

You haven't counterclaimed shit. If anyone else counterclaimed, it would be a serious accusation that would have to be evaluated by looking at when both parties were active D1, their opinions on the whole Tric/Spin thing, and a general sense of scumminess. If I daykilled a mafia player and someone else claimed that in thread, you'd bet I'd be counterclaiming. The lack of one and the lack of daykills on the dead players strongly indicates to me that NQT is telling the truth. A daykill is something I wouldn't fake claim as scum unless I was 100% sure the real daykiller couldn't contradict me, or if I had to take some flack for a teammate.

Ignore the claiming business for a moment; has NQT done anything to show he’s town to you?

I find NQT hard to read in general, but I haven't seen anything from him to indicate he's scum. He's missed a few things, but that's hardly scum indicative, and he generally takes more interest in the mechanical aspects of the game to do scumhunting than not.

What whole business with Kit?

You claimed Kit had made a scumslip at the begining of D2. When you realized it wasn't getting any traction you dropped it.

I have never once said killing MaxSpin was a bad idea. I said I believe NQT is fakeclaiming, because it’s super easy towncred, as evidenced by nobody giving a second thought about it until now. As evidenced by you not thinking he could be fakeclaiming, and that he isn’t scum as a result.

Consider that from the other side: what would I gain as scum from throwing any sort of shade on an apparently confirmed mafiakiller?

You'd be able to start momentum for a lynch against a target that wasn't your scumbuddy, get rid of a claimed daykiller, and leave people who keep being suspicious for later.

Have you ever seen a mafia bus another member of the mafia? How is claiming a daykill performed on mafia any different?

I've seen Mafia bus each other, and participated in it. Fakeclaiming is different because it doesn't involve claiming something that's extremely easy to disprove.

Are you worried about what sort of BUDDY NQT is with you?

Well if he was an Azwolg I'd have learned about it by now.

[hector13]

Persusyou serious bro? Tell me how my counterclaim proves NQT didn’t do it. If anyone else counterclaimed, would that prove NQT didn’t do it? What would it tell you if a counterclaim was made?

You haven't counterclaimed shit. If anyone else counterclaimed, it would be a serious accusation that would have to be evaluated by looking at when both parties were active D1, their opinions on the whole Tric/Spin thing, and a general sense of scumminess. If I daykilled a mafia player and someone else claimed that in thread, you'd bet I'd be counterclaiming. The lack of one and the lack of daykills on the dead players strongly indicates to me that NQT is telling the truth. A daykill is something I wouldn't fake claim as scum unless I was 100% sure the real daykiller couldn't contradict me, or if I had to take some flack for a teammate.

How do you know I’m not taking umbridge at this because I performed a daykill on MaxSpin?

How would you be sure if you had killed MaxSpin that NQT hadn’t tried, too? You can’t.

How would analyzing when they were active tell you anything, Shakerag still has to process the actions. Regardless, NQT didn’t claim until D2, at which point it becomes impossible to tell whether or not someone was active enough on the forums to send “kill MaxSpin” in a PM, even if they weren’t posting in the thread. Even then, more than one person can kill the same person, so how would you know either party was lying?

Thus, counterclaiming means nothing. Again, NQT can’t be shown to not have done it, so it follows the lack of a counterclaim means nothing because the real daykiller might have more shots and can’t say that NQT was fakeclaiming.

Ignore the claiming business for a moment; has NQT done anything to show he’s town to you?

I find NQT hard to read in general, but I haven't seen anything from him to indicate he's scum. He's missed a few things, but that's hardly scum indicative, and he generally takes more interest in the mechanical aspects of the game to do scumhunting than not.

Why does it seem unlikely that someone with an interest in the mechanical aspect would fakeclaim?

What whole business with Kit?

You claimed Kit had made a scumslip at the begining of D2. When you realized it wasn't getting any traction you dropped it.

Logically that means scum!me’s next target for an easy lynch is NQT lol

Not town!me poking at him to figure out the alignment of the most inactive player on D1. Notably you were prodding at me to stop there, too. Why is me trying to figure out alignment such a problem for you?

I have never once said killing MaxSpin was a bad idea. I said I believe NQT is fakeclaiming, because it’s super easy towncred, as evidenced by nobody giving a second thought about it until now. As evidenced by you not thinking he could be fakeclaiming, and that he isn’t scum as a result.

Consider that from the other side: what would I gain as scum from throwing any sort of shade on an apparently confirmed mafiakiller?

You'd be able to start momentum for a lynch against a target that wasn't your scumbuddy, get rid of a claimed daykiller, and leave people who keep being suspicious for later.

Right. Momentum that you stopped the first time I brought it up. Sensible scum!me backs off and then returns to it shortly thereafter, sure.

So you think there are at least two scum left?

NQT claimed a useless daykill. Try again. Maybe because he was buddies with you? Without checking, I think Lover is the only one that would result in a 2-for-1 on death, and it would have to be you for NQT to kill himself.

Which other players do you think are suspicious? Do you think any of them are my partner?

Have you ever seen a mafia bus another member of the mafia? How is claiming a daykill performed on mafia any different?

I've seen Mafia bus each other, and participated in it. Fakeclaiming is different because it doesn't involve claiming something that's extremely easy to disprove

Okay. How is a kill fakeclaim easy to disprove?

How is fakeclaiming a kill on scum different in this instance? Do you not consider this to be an edge case kinda thing given it would be NQT fakeclaiming a kill on a scumbuddy that was mechanically shown to be guilty? If not, why?

[notquitethere]

Hector

NQT claimed a useless daykill.

I'm really struggling to see how someone could write this from a town perspective. What's useless about killing outed scum and opening up the players to lynch more scum? I bought the whole town a whole day of play!

A different tack then: I killed MaxSpin. By your logic, I am now confirmed town.

?? But you didn't though. I just can't see the town motivation in choosing to attack me for claiming to have killed scum, when A. that has objectively helped the town B. there are no serious counterclaimants and C. there are a load of other players who all you know about them is that they haven't killed scum.

TricMagic
Beyond promising to step up my activity (which I have done), this is all I promised on D1:

I'm sorry Persus, I really don't mean to be cyberbullying you. This is just weird stuff re: my role pm. It's not in town's interest's for me to say why today, but I'll explain it all D2.

And I have now explained why I took that approach. I wanted Persus to confirm that BUDDY relationship implicitly (though at the time I didn't realise he wouldn't know it), but I didn't want to give scum info they could have potentially used to get more kills N1. Make sense?

[hector13]

Hector

NQT claimed a useless daykill.

I'm really struggling to see how someone could write this from a town perspective. What's useless about killing outed scum and opening up the players to lynch more scum? I bought the whole town a whole day of play!

Oh I see what you mean now.

When I say useless daykill, I meant you claim it now has no charges, not that killing MaxSpin was useless. MaxSpin being dead is good, I just don’t believe you did it.

A different tack then: I killed MaxSpin. By your logic, I am now confirmed town.

?? But you didn't though. I just can't see the town motivation in choosing to attack me for claiming to have killed scum, when A. that has objectively helped the town B. there are no serious counterclaimants and C. there are a load of other players who all you know about them is that they haven't killed scum.

How do you know I didn’t?

How do we know you did?

This is my point for crying out loud. The only thing we know about you is that you claimed to kill scum.

I’ll ask you the same question I asked Persus: how would someone countering your claim make your claim invalid, or vice versa?

[Deus Asmoth]

Well, I'm back. I need to do a re-read to look at all this hector-NQT stuff. I wish the lurkertracker wasn't dead.

TricMagic, did your PM when you became goo state that your alignment was town?

Superdorf:

Deus Asmoth: Nirur Torir accused a bunch of us of "throwing votes onto the pile while misrepresenting his questioning". Would you say any of us were misrepresenting NT back there? If so, who, and how?

My interpretation was that he only felt that I was misrepresenting him, but here's a vote-by-vote breakdown:

-hector: Nirur was bandwagoning Kit for lurking.
-RGU: Wanted to keep Kit alive because lynching Kit wouldn't give us any information. Also mentions the case I had on Nirur.
-Superdorf: Nirur was the best option at the time (13hrs to lynch).
-Persus: Nirur was passive-aggressive with some players, also lynching Kit would be a waste.
-Kit: He didn't want to be lynched himself.

The only vote that immediately jumps out at me as offputting is Kit, but he wasn't misrepresenting Nirur. I just have issues with someone voting for the other player with a wagon on them for no other reason than not wanting to be lynched themselves. I don't think it's an alignment indicator though.

NQT:

Deus Asmoth
There's this weird interaction Superdorf has with Max where he grill Max and then turns around and votes Tric. It doesn't sit well with me. Am I chasing shadows here?

Max Spin: Yeah, I'll second Nirur Torir's question there. Why vote NQT, who's backing up a supposed fake cop-read rather than the guy who faked said cop-read in the first place? Also, are you aware of any Miller-like abilities your role might possess?

TricMagic: Max claims never to have received this alignment confirmation of yours. Do you think he's lying?

When I first read it, my thought was that he was putting more pressure on Tric because Spin already had votes on him at that stage. That still seems like a reasonable interpretation, I think, but I do want to go over the rest of his posts while I read the thread again.

This seems like a really weird line of argument:

To be honest, the most likely reason I can think of for you arguing this so much is that you are in a scum chat and didn't see a message about Spin being on your team.

Why would scum want to highlight and discuss and draw attention to the exact composition of their team and knowledge? That doesn't seem like a "most likely reason" to me.

The reasoning I have for thinking his behaviour is suspect is that immediately after Spin died, RGU didn't seem to have any doubt that the scumteam would know that he's scum:

Okay, so if I'm understanding this right, TricMagic claimed Nosy Neighbor and was confirmed town for getting a scum report on Maximum Spin, which was correct since he did flip as scum. notquitethere also was the first one to vote for him, so he's probably also part of the town and not mafia. Same with Deus Asmoth, I doubt scum would bus one of their members so early and quickly.

However, later on that day he started bringing up the theory that Spin wouldn't have known that he was in the mafia and the mafia wouldn't have known Spin was on their team:

If Nirur is scum like y'all seem to think, tell me the story of how their Max vote was a bus not a genuine vote.

Since Maximum Spin was a Mafioso Amnesiac, it's probable scum didn't really know he was part of their team either. It could have been scum just voting him thinking TricMagic's report was just wrong.

He claims that he based this idea on something Shakerag said, but the only things that Shakerag replied to between the first quote and the second are these:

Spoiler: Modposts (click to show/hide)

Shakerag: Would a town player with Amnesiac Mafioso switch alignments once they recovered their memory?

Yes.

Shakerag: How inactive does somebody have to be to merit a replacement?

You know, I don't really have a rule for that either ... let's go with 48 hours and you get modkilled.  Ain't nobody got time to wait around for replacements.

Shakerag: do mafia know if there's an amnesiac mafioso in the game, and who it is?

If the player's starting role is anything but Mafia then no, not until the amnesia is cured.

And I don't see how those posts would lead someone to think that the player in question wouldn't be aware of their current alignment, or that the scumteam wouldn't be aware of them when their alignment is scum.

[Persus13]

How do you know I’m not taking umbridge at this because I performed a daykill on MaxSpin?

If you are a daykiller, why didn't you daykill? Furthermore, what role gave you a daykill? Why were you fine with his claim for most of the day?

How would you be sure if you had killed MaxSpin that NQT hadn’t tried, too? You can’t.

If NQT tried to kill Spin, then he's not scum. If I killed Spin and NQT did it too, I'd still be counterclaiming him.

How would analyzing when they were active tell you anything, Shakerag still has to process the actions. Regardless, NQT didn’t claim until D2, at which point it becomes impossible to tell whether or not someone was active enough on the forums to send “kill MaxSpin” in a PM, even if they weren’t posting in the thread. Even then, more than one person can kill the same person, so how would you know either party was lying?

Thus, counterclaiming means nothing. Again, NQT can’t be shown to not have done it, so it follows the lack of a counterclaim means nothing because the real daykiller might have more shots and can’t say that NQT was fakeclaiming.

These are all problems that can be solved by good old fashioned scumhunting. Counterclaiming draws attention to the initial claim. Attention that scum don't want in a power heavy set up. As such, a fakeclaim of a daykill would be extremely stupid, especially as the real daykiller has y'know, a daykill.

Why does it seem unlikely that someone with an interest in the mechanical aspect would fakeclaim?

Its not whether or not they'd fakeclaim, its what they would fakeclaim. And this is not a good claim to fake.

So you think there are at least two scum left?

I don't assume scum team makeups ever since I've played a game with no Mafia and 5 SKs.

Which other players do you think are suspicious? Do you think any of them are my partner?

Superdorf and RGU are second and third on my list. DA is a distant fourth.

Okay. How is a kill fakeclaim easy to disprove?

How is fakeclaiming a kill on scum different in this instance? Do you not consider this to be an edge case kinda thing given it would be NQT fakeclaiming a kill on a scumbuddy that was mechanically shown to be guilty? If not, why?

Vig roles can be found out in a number of ways. Role cops, Tracks, Watchmen, Autopsies, simple process of elimination during massclaim.

[Deus Asmoth]

hector: Your reasoning for NQT's claim of the Spin kill being a fake-claim is (at least in part) that it's an easy fake-claim since no one would want to counter-claim him, right? But given that most of the people I've seen responding to your posts appear to disagree with that idea, how does it make sense that no-one has counter-claimed if someone else did the kill? Superdorf has claimed not to have done it, Persus would have counterclaimed based on his responses and Tric already took an action during the day.

[Deus Asmoth]

... I jest.

...hmm.

[hector13]

hector: Your reasoning for NQT's claim of the Spin kill being a fake-claim is (at least in part) that it's an easy fake-claim since no one would want to counter-claim him, right? But given that most of the people I've seen responding to your posts appear to disagree with that idea, how does it make sense that no-one has counter-claimed if someone else did the kill? Superdorf has claimed not to have done it, Persus would have counterclaimed based on his responses and Tric already took an action during the day.

*sigh*

This is a fair point. I am assuming thus that you didn’t perform the kill? Kit made a full claim so he didn’t do it, I didn’t do it (devil’s advocating my way through my thought processes before) which leaves RGU.

Evidently Persus prefers discussing why his theory is best theory rather than telling me how and why I’m wrong in this particular instance.

Color me convinced. This does not mean NQT is town, but I guess he’s not scum.

Unvote

[Superdorf]

Nng. My internet connection went and died on me for twenty hours straight... couldn't post, couldn't even reference the thread for case-building purposes. I don't have much time at the moment, but I'll try and get myself properly caught up on the current point of contention at least.