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[Superdorf]

Ooh ooh, somebody to logic-spar with! Readlist later. Wordpokings now.

Spoiler: In which I cut up that whole post and respond to each individual chunk of it. Yayy walls of text! (click to show/hide)

I've been the one thinking this whole thing was pointless but people continued to insist on it, like if it was important, and prevented me from doing any scumhunting since I've had to answer all of the time.

We're insisting on it (at least, I'm insisting on it) because you react so beautifully to getting poked about it. The quibble is minor. Your reaction is very much not.

I'm going to end this nosense right here and get back to what's really important then.

What's this "really important" thing you want to get back to?

Superdorf, the points I made in this post still stand, and now I'm convinced that the reason you've been so persistent on making me explain why did I unvote you was because you knew these assumptions were wrong. Maybe it was confusion, because you knew you were scum.

Your assumptions were wrong. I gave you different assumptions, remember? Namely, I'm incompetent and tired and everyone and everything makes me suspicious, including my own suspicions. I've been WIFOMing myself, and it's absolutely paralyzing everything I say and do. I was a discombobulated mess all of D1, and I'm only now starting to come out of it.

Firsst of all, you made an attack against Macimum Spin (who was scum) in the same post you voted TricMagic (who was probably town and invesstigator). Right after, you vote for KitRougard. I think there's a pattern here, but maybe it's just me.

That wasn't an attack. That was me trying to understand what he was saying. As I said before, in that post I linked you: Max confused me, because he expressed himself in a rather odd fashion. Tric worried me, because TricMagic is naturally suspicious like that. So I asked Max for clarification, and I voted Tric. That turned out to be a bad mistake on my part. When I say I don't trust my own reads? This is why.

((Also, this might be crazy, but I have a gut feeling of a second scum team composed by DA, Persus and Superdorf. They have been defending and supporting each other, though maybe it's just them reading each other as town.))

Wait, they've been defending me? Cool. I'm gonna have to go re-read some stuff to check that one.

And again, your vote doesn't match your words. A post ago, you read hector13 (Who was voting Nirur Torir) as scum. Then you say Nirur Torir as been active, you expect him to flip town and vote him anyways. It doesn't make much sense to me, even if Nirur Torir turned out to be a serial killer.

I read both Nirur Torir and Hector as scum. They both looked strange to me. Maybe one was scum? Maybe the other? Maybe both? I didn't know. But I'd been second-guessing myself that whole Day, I didn't know what to do or what to say anymore, and I had to vote somebody... so I figured I'd try one and chase the other the next day if it turned out I'd guessed wrong. In the end, I lucked out.

Even so, scum needs to get rid of the serial killers to win.

Now I'm curious-- how d'you feel about some of the other people who voted Nirur Torir that day? Anyone there jump out at you in particular?

Then you asked me twice to explain why I unvoted you, which I did.

And you became so beautifully irritated in the process.

What I meant to say was that I wasn't present for the kill, when Maximum Spin was getting voted on then daykilled. Seems like sleep deprivation has made me to keep mixing words and people is now using that against me now.

Ah. Wonderful. Thank you. Why is that important?

Anyway. You're reacting with an awful lot of emotion in response to a very little questioning. Why do you dislike our pressure so?
Also, would you mind throwing us a readlist?

[TricMagic]

Did you not say you were making a readlist?

[Superdorf]

Yeah, I was almost done with that when RGU posted. I'll withhold judgement on RGU while we're still bickering, but here's the rest of it.

Spoiler: Readlist (click to show/hide)

TricMagic: Town. Erratic he may be, but erratic he always is. This time 'round he's town erratic.

KitRougard: Town. His D1 was weird, but he's rallied since then. He remains oddly obsessed with roleclaims and mechanics and whatnot, but that's well in keeping with what I know of him. Difference of opinion on my part, nothing more.

Persus13: Town. Has been scumhunting with consistency all game.
------------------
notquitethere: Slight town. His vigilante claim seems to be solid, but I still want an explanation for his shiftiness towards Persus D1.
------------------
Deus Asmoth: Null. He chased the serial killer plenty, but has been quiet lately. Why? At any rate, I've still not looked into his case long or hard enough to get a very clear read.
------------------
hector13: Slight scum, but I don't know why I think that anymore. My head spins whenever I try to poke him. But that's a gut-read, and I don't trust my gut-reads. Not when I actually have somebody to chase for once.

[hector13]

I don’t think you’ve actually poked me yet..?

D’you believe there’s only one scum left?

[Superdorf]

Hm, lemme rephrase: you worry me, and I don't know why, and whenever I look through your posts to figure it out I just wind up confused and more worried. I'm starting to think I'm just paranoid, and that I'd find you disturbing whatever alignment you rolled.

I'm not certain there's only one scum left, but that possibility becomes increasingly likely as the kills mount up.

[hector13]

That’s the annoying thing about being me: everyone says they’re worried about me but they don’t say why, and they don’t try to figure it out.

IcyTea did it in the last game - fine I was scum but I was poking something I would’ve poked as town too - and this one, despite the longest interaction we had being RVS and essentially just feeling each other out. Tric just says “HECTOR’S SCUM ‘CAUSE OF X Y Z” and provides zero evidence for x and z, and ignores the perfectly reasonable explanation for y. You’ve been doing the same, you just haven’t pressed me on anything, presumably through lack of confidence or the daunting task of trying to shine a flashlight in a yawning abyss. NQT did it on D1, I’m not entirely sure what their goal was, he was being super cagey D1.

I mean yeah, I’m good at the game and could provide a perfectly reasonable explanation for pretty much any position, but I’m human, I make mistakes. I’m just not going to make them without anybody shining the spotlight in my eyes.

You’re taking the right tack by not clearing me for being on the SK wagon, but... your gut feeling is there for a reason. Is it something I said? Me being good with words? Quite aggressive when people do silly things? Something you ate?

[Superdorf]

Well, I'll look. But while I'm looking, answer me this: why do you want me to build a tangible case against you?

[hector13]

Just ‘cause it’s easy town-cred for me to look as though I have nothing to hide and then annihilate the case a newer player puts against me.

... I jest.

You’re one of the players I need to look into and, like I said in the last game, shining the spotlight on someone else puts the light on you too. I want to see what you do and figure out your motivations from it.

It has been a good start in that regard.

[randomgenericusername]

Ooh ooh, somebody to logic-spar with! Readlist later. Wordpokings now.

I've been the one thinking this whole thing was pointless but people continued to insist on it, like if it was important, and prevented me from doing any scumhunting since I've had to answer all of the time.

(1) We're insisting on it (at least, I'm insisting on it) because you react so beautifully to getting poked about it. The quibble is minor. Your reaction is very much not.

I'm going to end this nosense right here and get back to what's really important then.

(2) What's this "really important" thing you want to get back to?

Superdorf, the points I made in this post still stand, and now I'm convinced that the reason you've been so persistent on making me explain why did I unvote you was because you knew these assumptions were wrong. Maybe it was confusion, because you knew you were scum.

(3) Your assumptions were wrong. I gave you different assumptions, remember? Namely, I'm incompetent and tired and everyone and everything makes me suspicious, including my own suspicions. I've been WIFOMing myself, and it's absolutely paralyzing everything I say and do. I was a discombobulated mess all of D1, and I'm only now starting to come out of it.

Firsst of all, you made an attack against Macimum Spin (who was scum) in the same post you voted TricMagic (who was probably town and invesstigator). Right after, you vote for KitRougard. I think there's a pattern here, but maybe it's just me.

(4) That wasn't an attack. That was me trying to understand what he was saying. As I said before, in that post I linked you: Max confused me, because he expressed himself in a rather odd fashion. Tric worried me, because TricMagic is naturally suspicious like that. So I asked Max for clarification, and I voted Tric. That turned out to be a bad mistake on my part. When I say I don't trust my own reads? This is why.

((Also, this might be crazy, but I have a gut feeling of a second scum team composed by DA, Persus and Superdorf. They have been defending and supporting each other, though maybe it's just them reading each other as town.))

(5) Wait, they've been defending me? Cool. I'm gonna have to go re-read some stuff to check that one.

And again, your vote doesn't match your words. A post ago, you read hector13 (Who was voting Nirur Torir) as scum. Then you say Nirur Torir as been active, you expect him to flip town and vote him anyways. It doesn't make much sense to me, even if Nirur Torir turned out to be a serial killer.

(6) I read both Nirur Torir and Hector as scum. They both looked strange to me. Maybe one was scum? Maybe the other? Maybe both? I didn't know. But I'd been second-guessing myself that whole Day, I didn't know what to do or what to say anymore, and I had to vote somebody... so I figured I'd try one and chase the other the next day if it turned out I'd guessed wrong. In the end, I lucked out.

Even so, scum needs to get rid of the serial killers to win.

(7) Now I'm curious-- how d'you feel about some of the other people who voted Nirur Torir that day? Anyone there jump out at you in particular?

Then you asked me twice to explain why I unvoted you, which I did.

(8 ) And you became so beautifully irritated in the process.

What I meant to say was that I wasn't present for the kill, when Maximum Spin was getting voted on then daykilled. Seems like sleep deprivation has made me to keep mixing words and people is now using that against me now.

(9) Ah. Wonderful. Thank you. Why is that important?

(10) Anyway. You're reacting with an awful lot of emotion in response to a very little questioning. Why do you dislike our pressure so?
Also, would you mind throwing us a readlist?

((I hate how I keep typing "Macimum" instead of "Maximum" because of being in my phone. Apologies for any typos.))

(1) I've stayed calm the whole time and I just don't get it why people think I "react". It's just like in Mafiakart when everyone just seems to misinterpret the tone or feeling behind my posts. I was irritated because I didn't see the point of it and the whole thing was just wasting time from what was important.

(2) Hunting scum, I thought it was obvious. I guess I'm just really that disconnected from people if I think so differently from the rest.

(3)

I was tired, and I was trying to push both of them with one vote. Of the two, Tric made me slightly more suspicious-- at this point, I hadn't studied the thing deeply enough to have much more than emotional reads, and Tric always looks weird to me-- so I threw my vote that way. At the same time, there were points in Max's defense that I wanted to clarify with him.

On top of all that, I expected to have another day to move that vote if I needed to, depending on how Max reacted to my pokings. Then I was asleep, and then Max died, leaving me with this weird quasi-D2 mess to sort out!

It was late, I was sleepy, I tried to do something weird, I messed up. Now I'm trying to reorient myself.

So basically, you're saying you made a mistake by accident due to being sleepy. You could have lied and this was just a justification as of why you voted for the investigator, but I guess I could trust you this time and assume this is just you making a newbie mistake.

(4) Still, you seemed to push Maximum Spin more than you did TricMagic, and I think it should have been the other way around. Another mistake?

(5) More than you all seem to read each other as town and go after the same things. Maybe buddying? Could even be a cult. It's just a crazy theory, I just left it there in case it turns out to be true later on, like when the game ends. Most probably they're both just town.

(6) Alright, I get that you were confused and such, but this is the third time so far. You can't just justify everything with being confused and unsure forever.

(7) It all depends of the reasonings behind the votes since both scum and town would want to get a serial killer lynched. I'll also analyze thoe who voted for KitRougard, but that will have to be in another post. Nirur Torir seemed to be certain Deus Asmoth was scum for some reason.

(6)Nirur Torir - Deus Asmoth, hector13, randomgenericusername, Superdorf, Persus13, KitRougard

(8 ) Read 1. At this point I feel you're probably trying to taunt or mock me, but I think you should instead try to apply actual pressure with a case.

(9) Because some people apparently were trying to use that against me, if you hadn't noticed.

To be honest, the most likely reason I can think of for you arguing this so much is that you are in a scum chat and didn't see a message about Spin being on your team.

And that's wrong. If Max was still an amnesiac, he wouldn't have flipped as scum, and if he was a mafioso, he would have had access to the scum chat.

Both of these were from posts of those who voted against me, and I was explaining that I don't see how that makes me scum as by the time I read the thread, Maximum Spin was already dead. So even if I had been scum, literally nothing would have changed or happened.

(10)(( What emotion? I'm legitimately confused as of why everyone always thinks I'm angry or whatever. I don't dislike the pressure, I actually enjoy it because it gives me an incentive to post more and be less passive, so I can avoid what I do most of the time during the early game. Do I really appear to be that agressive?)) About a read list, that will also come next post after I analyze the votes from yesterday.

[Superdorf]

Interesting format. I'll play along.

(1) I've stayed calm the whole time and I just don't get it why people think I "react". It's just like in Mafiakart when everyone just seems to misinterpret the tone or feeling behind my posts. I was irritated because I didn't see the point of it and the whole thing was just wasting time from what was important.

(2) Hunting scum, I thought it was obvious. I guess I'm just really that disconnected from people if I think so differently from the rest.

(3)

I was tired, and I was trying to push both of them with one vote. Of the two, Tric made me slightly more suspicious-- at this point, I hadn't studied the thing deeply enough to have much more than emotional reads, and Tric always looks weird to me-- so I threw my vote that way. At the same time, there were points in Max's defense that I wanted to clarify with him.

On top of all that, I expected to have another day to move that vote if I needed to, depending on how Max reacted to my pokings. Then I was asleep, and then Max died, leaving me with this weird quasi-D2 mess to sort out!

It was late, I was sleepy, I tried to do something weird, I messed up. Now I'm trying to reorient myself.

So basically, you're saying you made a mistake by accident due to being sleepy. You could have lied and this was just a justification as of why you voted for the investigator, but I guess I could trust you this time and assume this is just you making a newbie mistake.

(4) Still, you seemed to push Maximum Spin more than you did TricMagic, and I think it should have been the other way around. Another mistake?

(5) More than you all seem to read each other as town and go after the same things. Maybe buddying? Could even be a cult. It's just a crazy theory, I just left it there in case it turns out to be true later on, like when the game ends. Most probably they're both just town.

(6) Alright, I get that you were confused and such, but this is the third time so far. You can't just justify everything with being confused and unsure forever.

(7) It all depends of the reasonings behind the votes since both scum and town would want to get a serial killer lynched. I'll also analyze thoe who voted for KitRougard, but that will have to be in another post. Nirur Torir seemed to be certain Deus Asmoth was scum for some reason.

(6)Nirur Torir - Deus Asmoth, hector13, randomgenericusername, Superdorf, Persus13, KitRougard

(8 ) Read 1. At this point I feel you're probably trying to taunt or mock me, but I think you should instead try to apply actual pressure with a case.

(9) Because some people apparently were trying to use that against me, if you hadn't noticed.

To be honest, the most likely reason I can think of for you arguing this so much is that you are in a scum chat and didn't see a message about Spin being on your team.

And that's wrong. If Max was still an amnesiac, he wouldn't have flipped as scum, and if he was a mafioso, he would have had access to the scum chat.

Both of these were from posts of those who voted against me, and I was explaining that I don't see how that makes me scum as by the time I read the thread, Maximum Spin was already dead. So even if I had been scum, literally nothing would have changed or happened.

(10)(( What emotion? I'm legitimately confused as of why everyone always thinks I'm angry or whatever. I don't dislike the pressure, I actually enjoy it because it gives me an incentive to post more and be less passive, so I can avoid what I do most of the time during the early game. Do I really appear to be that agressive?)) About a read list, that will also come next post after I analyze the votes from yesterday.

(1 ) After some questions on my part, and a couple more questions from other people, you started saying stuff like:

This is actually extremely infuriating

Then you dredged up some stuff from D1, you voted me again, and now we're in a proper spat. This is a reaction. A big one. I'm excited to see where it goes.

(2 ) Y'know what? That question of mine was no good. Never mind.

(3 ) Like I said... I'm giving you an alternative assumption. Assumptions are all I can give you; I don't have hard mechanical evidence of my own alignment. We're all running off guesswork here, now that the cop's gone gooey on us.

(4 ) Not exactly a mistake-- rather, that was all I could think of to ask Tric at the time. That probably should have been the other way 'round, but I wasn't sure how to make it so.

(5 ) Huh. Maybe I'm doing something right! (Or maybe they're scum, and I'm doing something horribly wrong. You never know in this game.)

(6 ) ...I'm pathetic aren't I? You're right; I've been faffing about all game, too self-conscious to do anything useful. This is no good. I'm trying to change it. I'm trying to change it.

(7 ) I want to see that analysis of yours; it sounds enlightening-- especially the bit about Nirur Torir/Deus Asmoth. I was having trouble picking that mess apart.

(8 ) Yeahh, that was out of line on my part. See, I'm suddenly having fun. I am intensely, dementedly happy about the way this is going, and that apparently came out as a taunt. Sorry 'bout that. 

(9 ) Ah. Of course. Thank you. This doesn't vindicate you on that count, mind, as you could have read the thread early and simply refrained from commenting in-thread for awhile... but it does help. It does help.

(10 ) As I said above, when you use words like "infuriating" it tends to come off as you being in a bad mood. I'm glad you're enjoying yourself, though. I am too.

I'm gonna hold you to that votecount analysis, and that readlist, but right now it's midnight and I need to be sleeping. G'night!

[notquitethere]

All

Unfortunately, my day kill was one shot.

The thing with Persus- I have a BUDDY role with them. Because I wasn't really paying enough attention, I was under the impression that Persus would know this and I was trying to goad him into an implicit recognition... but now I re-read the wording of the role, I realise he would have absolutely no idea he's my BUDDY. So, hey there buddy!

Also, I absolutely didn't realise that Kinga was a miller. This means that there could still be more mafia. Regardless, this means I can start to form a core of town:

TricMagic took down Maximum Spin (well, they lined up the shot and I took it). D1 mafia have zero reason to do this.

KitRougard- Kit's disappointment that they couldn't lock town with goo seemed genuine after last night I've got a better feeling about them than I did D1.


Hmm, let's see something...

Superdorf

Deus Asmoth is scum. After my flip, be sure to go after him. And everyone who's throwing votes into my pile while misrepresenting my questioning.

Do you think NT's accusation of Deus Asmoth was just desperate nonsense or was there a point embedded there?


Deus Asmoth
There's this weird interaction Superdorf has with Max where he grill Max and then turns around and votes Tric. It doesn't sit well with me. Am I chasing shadows here?

Max Spin: Yeah, I'll second Nirur Torir's question there. Why vote NQT, who's backing up a supposed fake cop-read rather than the guy who faked said cop-read in the first place? Also, are you aware of any Miller-like abilities your role might possess?

TricMagic: Max claims never to have received this alignment confirmation of yours. Do you think he's lying?

This seems like a really weird line of argument:

To be honest, the most likely reason I can think of for you arguing this so much is that you are in a scum chat and didn't see a message about Spin being on your team.

Why would scum want to highlight and discuss and draw attention to the exact composition of their team and knowledge? That doesn't seem like a "most likely reason" to me.

[Deus Asmoth]

This is sadly just a filler post to say I'm busy today and may be most of tomorrow as well. If I can I'll do a proper post this evening. If not I'll do one tomorrow evening.

[Superdorf]

I'm still re-reading the DA/NT squabble, but I'll just mention in the meantime: we know Kingawsume was a miller, but we don't know he wasn't mafia. Alignments and roles are unrelated, so he could've been anything and we won't know until the game's over...

[Superdorf]

Mm... I've read that argument again, and I'm inclined to call that last admonishment desperate nonsense. DA's stuff there leaves me with nothing more than a null-read-- he could be chasing the SK as town, he could be chasing the SK as scum. I don't know which.

...Y'know what? That's not good enough. I've been ignoring DA all game, just like I ignored DA all last game, and that's no good. No good.

Deus Asmoth: Nirur Torir accused a bunch of us of "throwing votes onto the pile while misrepresenting his questioning". Would you say any of us were misrepresenting NT back there? If so, who, and how?

[randomgenericusername]

So, read list I guess.

Superdorf: Slight Scum, for the reasons explained in the post before. The vote against him was motly an attempt to apply pressure, and I'm not entirely sure we should lynch him unless we don't find anyone else more suspicious.

Deus Asmoth: Town. Was quick to vote Maximum Spin, like NQT, and has been overall town-ish. Since I doubt scum would bus one of their members during the first part of Day 1, he's probably town. Also was the first one to vote Nirur and push towards his lynch.

Persus13: Town. He has been very active and paying a lot of attention, pointing fingers and contributing a lot to discussion. Was inactive during the whole Maximum Spin incident.

hector13: Null, I guess? Despite what the rest have said, he doesn't look that scummy to me. Could someone explain me why he's scummy again? I'll have to look in detail later.

NQT: Town. First to vote Maximum Spin, and even tried to get him hammered. Also claims to have done the daykill. I get that there's the possibility scum did just bus one of their buddies, but a daykill would probably be excessive, even more so if it was an one-shot ability.

KitRougard: Null. He was kinda pushy with the whole green goo thing, but it was probably just his confusion with how the role worked mechanically. Like NQT said, it could have been just a genuine reaction. Then again, he was lurking during almost all of Day 1.

TricMagic: Town. Pretty much confirmed an investigator, and even got scum killed during Day 1. There isn't much else to say about this.

Looking back, I'm thinking we're either dealing with a lone scum or third party at this point.