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[GoblinCookie]

Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).

C.S Lewis maybe? 

[TD1]

Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).

Wot.

[Clatch]

Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).

C.S Lewis maybe?

This is really getting good!  As long as "Magic" is a reference to a master work, I don't have a problem with it.  Just as long as it doesn't end up as bits of paper floating lotterily into hapless dwarven hands.   I have a enough problems with my clan already. 

[PlumpHelmetMan]

90% sure Iduno is a troll, best not to engage them honestly.

[KittyTac]

Can we not start a flame war in yet another suggestion thread?

[PlumpHelmetMan]

Can we not start a flame war in yet another suggestion thread?

Hence why I argue not to engage them.

[GoblinCookie]

This is really getting good!  As long as "Magic" is a reference to a master work, I don't have a problem with it.  Just as long as it doesn't end up as bits of paper floating lotterily into hapless dwarven hands.   I have a enough problems with my clan already. 

C.S Lewis is more an example of a world with lots of magic, but mostly evil magic.  While magical things happen to good characters that sometimes benefit them, they don't ever use magic as such unless they are evil or falling into evil.  Tolkien's works are actually surprisingly mundane but with a highly magical background that is not widely used.

o.O Have you actually read anything of Tolkien's? Sure he equated the destructiveness of industry and how it ruins nature with evil to some extent (which one may or may not agree with, I don't see what's wrong with it personally), but racial inter-marriage being shown as evil, what? The story of Beren and Luthien if anything shows the opposite, with Thingol who is quite racist as first comes around when Beren proves to him that humans aren't a lesser people as he'd thought. Not sure if you mean the people of Númenor who after mingling with the people back on middle-earth lost their longevity, but that wasn't really an inter-racial thing either as the people they mingled with were of the same "race", just not of those who sailed off to Númenor and were blessed by the Valar, and the issue is more shown to be the attitude of those who percieve themselves as better. One might argue there were some slight racism with how most of the "easterners" sided with evil, but some of them were shown to be honorable as well and there wasn't a lack of evil men in all the other groups either. Don't really agree with the magic bit either, I'd say he makes it pretty clear that it's not magic that is evil but how you use it, but bit much to go into all of that.

No the magic is clearly good or bad.  The whole point of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is that no you cannot use 'bad' magic for good ends (the ring).  Good magic however is pretty much summed up by one person, Gandalf who isn't really human.  There aren't any examples of use of magical arts by any humans at all that are good I know of. 

The racism part is simple, Tokien's works are racist and that is very simple.  The reason this is very simple is the concept of the Numenor and their role in the story is a fairly straightforward replication of a racist idea.  The superior race (of humans) arrives in Middle Earth (the explanations as to how they got superior are not relevant) and creates an advanced civilisation (Gondor) in which the regular human majority are ruled-over by the superior race.  Because their superiority is biological the danger is they will mingle with inferior human stock and cause the decline of their nation, which is apparently what happens.

It is a very established racist idea, superior people make a superior civilisation which is imposed onto the inferior people and these inferior people dilute the superior people's superior blood through interbreeding causing the civilisation to decline. 

[IndigoFenix]

The essence of Tolkienian magic isn't that magic itself is good or evil, but rather that it is rare, powerful, and often subtle. In fact among the major players in LOTR it is fairly evenly balanced between good and evil: Gandalf against Saruman, Galadriel against Sauron (in the sense that both are masters over their respective domains). None of them are really human.

Some magic is intrinsically evil, like the Ring and Morgul-blades, but a great deal of it is neutral, like the Palantir, and most elven-made things are good-aligned (or at least painful to evil).

The villains get more stage time because they are focused on conquest while the good magic users are generally focused on preservation, and although evil is "winning" at the time the story takes place, they are close enough that the actions of mortals are able to break the stalemate.

This is what Toady means by a Tolkienian world, as opposed to a D&D type world where you can walk into a tavern and hire a fireball-throwing wizard who is in the same league of power as a sword-swinging warrior.

[Manveru Taurënér]

No the magic is clearly good or bad.  The whole point of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is that no you cannot use 'bad' magic for good ends (the ring).  Good magic however is pretty much summed up by one person, Gandalf who isn't really human.  There aren't any examples of use of magical arts by any humans at all that are good I know of. 

The racism part is simple, Tokien's works are racist and that is very simple.  The reason this is very simple is the concept of the Numenor and their role in the story is a fairly straightforward replication of a racist idea.  The superior race (of humans) arrives in Middle Earth (the explanations as to how they got superior are not relevant) and creates an advanced civilisation (Gondor) in which the regular human majority are ruled-over by the superior race.  Because their superiority is biological the danger is they will mingle with inferior human stock and cause the decline of their nation, which is apparently what happens.

It is a very established racist idea, superior people make a superior civilisation which is imposed onto the inferior people and these inferior people dilute the superior people's superior blood through interbreeding causing the civilisation to decline.

I mean yeah, it certainly has racist themes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his works are racist. Some people seem to not agree with that as far as fiction goes, but imo it's whether racism is portrayed as a good thing or not that matters. Racism and superiority is constantly shown to be a bad thing rather, the gift given to the Númenorians clearly being a mistake which leads to their corruption and downfall, and continuing to cause issues in middle-earth as well, keeping those apart who should have stood united against evil. The kin-strife in Gondor for example caused by the current king being percieved as a half-breed (his mother being one of the Northmen), leading to great losses before the cruel usurpers are eventually expelled (fear of mingling thus causing way greater damage to their civilization than the mingling ever would), paving the way for Saurons return as the Gondorians no longer had the strength to keep watch on the borders of Mordor. Sure, there was technically a "superior race", but more often than not it was shown to be a bad thing overall, Aragorn being an exception more than anything else (he had some skill in healing "magic" btw, which is probably the only direct form of magic shown by any humans in the stories).

Pretty off topic though so yeah, I've said my piece, feel free to disagree as I'm sure you will ^^

[Loci]

No the magic is clearly good or bad. 

In the first chapter of Fellowship, Bilbo hands out magical toys as birthday presents; were those 'good' toys or 'bad' toys?

There aren't any examples of use of magical arts by any humans at all that are good I know of. 

For a big, splashy example: Aragorn summons and commands an army of the Dead to save Middle-earth from the forces of evil.

[TD1]

To give it more nuance, if Gandalf casts a spell summoning light, is it good or bad magic?
                                   if Saruman casts a spell summoning light, is it good or bad magic?

As for humans wielding magic, most can't. So it's hard to give an example. Denethor, however, had far-sight of a form - the alignment of this power was determined by his own personality.

The racism part is simple, Tokien's works are racist and that is very simple.  The reason this is very simple is the concept of the Numenor and their role in the story is a fairly straightforward replication of a racist idea.  The superior race (of humans) arrives in Middle Earth (the explanations as to how they got superior are not relevant) and creates an advanced civilisation (Gondor) in which the regular human majority are ruled-over by the superior race.  Because their superiority is biological the danger is they will mingle with inferior human stock and cause the decline of their nation, which is apparently what happens.

It is a very established racist idea, superior people make a superior civilisation which is imposed onto the inferior people and these inferior people dilute the superior people's superior blood through interbreeding causing the civilisation to decline. 

Yes, it is simple to the point of reductio ad absurdum. The entire point of Tolkien's world is that magic is in decline - and this ushers in a new age. The elves are in decline, Gondor is in decline, and the Age which is being ushered in is the Age of Men - not the Numenor. As the old fades, the new grows. The weakness of Gondor leads to the growing strength of Rohan, the barbaric horsemen who are racially inferior to the Gondorians... and who are nonetheless as noble, arguably more noble, and just as valuable as the Gondorians.

To give a speculum (mirror) - Bilbo and Frodo, Merry, Pippin, all these key characters are racially inferior in every way. And they are the strongest characters in all the ways that matter.

I repeat, you can reduce a work as vast and nuanced as Tolkien's to simplistic themes, but do so at your own peril.

[Clatch]

To give a speculum (mirror) - Bilbo and Frodo, Merry, Pippin, all these key characters are racially inferior in every way. And they are the strongest characters in all the ways that matter.

This is why the current version of dwarf fortress for me is worthy of a dissertation.  Forgive me if I muddy the waters.  Maybe someone can reign this in?  I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit burned out from failed master works. 

Again I make reference to Tolkien, not because I believe DF borrows elements from that world.  Tolkien is not about racism, it's about tribalism which is completely different.  Likewise, the minimal fantastical elements that DF includes (i.e. vampires and necromancy) are symbolic of failed value systems that eventually corrupt and destroy a thriving society.  Generally these value systems are associated with greed, which DF overtly portrays as the core mechanic.  Value systems that maintain societal growth and preservation have already been here.  There isn't anything "new" under the sun.

As the dwarf digs deeper in his greed, he also uncovers further elements that are animistic in nature which provide additional challenges.  A clan can survive well on its own and be completely self sufficient.  If they expose themselves to the world with trade, other value systems creep in and change the dynamics.  Each random iteration of how this develops is believable and interesting.  For me personally it is one of the main attractions.

Racism is a relatively new term in the political arena.  This thing about identity politics is relatively a new set of value systems emerging that really were only just starting when Tolkien began his work.  Tolkien is about tribalism.

The idea of identity where everyone is a god and can determine a new set of values that everyone else must accept is kin to this modern "magical" thinking age.  Regardless of how magic is introduced, DF is hinged on a random roguelike engine.  The introduction of more magic to this world will eventually bring such chaos that DF will be rendered broken and unplayable.

DF isn't a dungeon crawl.  It's a history generator that can be interacted with in a meaningful way.  The introduction of the more modern concepts will break it.  For example, in a sense, the single player mode of DF shares more qualities kin to an archeologist than the arcane. With DF, a player can make a societal impact on the world that can be uncovered and contended with by future generations.  It is how the dialogue of value systems are maintained -- through tribalism.  Longevity is based on maintained value systems -- not magic or corruption of them.

With the introduction of identity politics in this mix, eventually society would never understand history and chaos is eventually assumed.  It is the whole bases on the ancient city or tower of Babylon where the languages were confused.  Whether that story is taken literally or as an allegory, it is about self preservation of society.  Even though the Internet has reversed this process, it doesn't invalidate this historical reference.

[SixOfSpades]

Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).

C.S Lewis maybe?

Lewis had magic-users both good (Aslan, a direct stand-in for God), evil (the White Witch, as well as the Calormen god who is a less-clear parallel for Allah), and neutral (the human Earth magician who created magic rings allowing interplanar travel). I can't recall any instances of magic being used for Good purposes except by Aslan, though, so Lewis was probably echoing the common theme of "all magic that does not come from God is inherently evil" that was even more ubiquitous then than it is now.

90% sure Iduno is a troll, best not to engage them honestly.

I doubt he's deliberately trolling. Apart from his inexplicable mention of interracial marriage (which was definitely incorrect), his views are largely matters of personal taste. Not even Tolkien could have pleased everybody.

Good magic however is pretty much summed up by one person, Gandalf who isn't really human.

And Galadriel, and Elrond, and Saruman (important to emphasize that he was Good for 99.9% of his career, we saw only his downfall), and almost certainly the other Istari as well. Tom Bombadil is most likely of Neutral alignment, although his magical acts that we witness are indeed Good (or at least anti-Evil).

There aren't any examples of use of magical arts by any humans at all that are good I know of.

The Fellowship visits the hilltop seat of Amon Hen, a stone throne built & enchanted by men of Gondor. While sitting in the chair, Frodo is able to see places & events at great distances; Amon Hen is essentially a high-powered magical telescope. On the other side of the river stands another hilltop throne, its twin of Amon Lhaw, which does exactly the same thing, but with sound instead of light. A magical high-powered directional microphone. While these artifacts are admittedly not inherently Good, they are at least defensive: Placed just inside Gondor's border to detect approaching threats. Such magical technology could almost certainly have been deployed in a more offensive/intrusive position, but they chose to keep it in their own backyard.

The superior race (of humans) arrives in Middle Earth (the explanations as to how they got superior are not relevant) and creates an advanced civilisation (Gondor) in which the regular human majority are ruled-over by the superior race.  Because their superiority is biological the danger is they will mingle with inferior human stock and cause the decline of their nation, which is apparently what happens.

1. The reason for Numenorean superiority is very relevant: They were granted longer lifespans by Illuvatar, and taught various arts by the Elves of Valinor. In other words, their superiority was not innate, it was a gift--a gift which, incidentally, the Numenoreans had done little or nothing to earn.
2. The only thing "biological" about their superiority is their lifespan, and even that's not much of a hard wall. Sure, you could say, "the less-cultured Men couldn't learn magic because it takes like 50 years of practice to be able to cast even a simple spell," but of course the flip side of that is "the Numenoreans didn't learn magic because nobody wanted to waste 50 years of their life, so they all got real jobs instead."
3. The declines of Gondor and Arnor weren't caused by intermarrying with the locals, they were caused by poor structural & military decisions. Earnur Last-King of Gondor rode away to deal with an invasion of Easterlings without leaving an heir at home, and the king of Arnor split his realm into three to divide between his sons--the resulting smaller kingdoms were nationalist & didn't have each others' backs, enabling the Witch-king of Angmar to defeat them one at a time.

Tolkien is not about racism, it's about tribalism which is completely different.

Precisely. Sure, Boromir believes that his nation is the greatest realm in the world, and that he himself is its greatest son--but the exact same could be said of Legolas, or Gimli, or (after he got Back Again) Bilbo, or (at least the "greatest son" part) Aragorn. Every major character knows and respects his own ancestry, his own homeland, and his own people. And while Tolkien's works do contain racist themes (how could they not, when it's literally Elves vs. Orcs), they also contain enough counter-examples to balance it out: Like Boromir claiming that the Men of Gondor are the strongest & noblest people in the world when there's a bunch of Elves right there, and how the enmity between Dwarves & Elves has always caused nothing but trouble for both of them.


But enough of racism, this is a magic thread. And while the concepts of "good" magic and "evil" magic are worth discussing, what I find more interesting by far is the idea of sphere-based magic, where Good and Evil are purely subject to interpretation. And to cater it to Clatch's original suggestion, we could make certain races (the playable ones) able to access magic primarily though faith-based sources (gods) or research & experimentation (libraries, slabs). This would be very familiar to players of almost any RPG. Meanwhile, other races (night trolls, blendecs, etc.) could get their magical abilities through natural sources--most likely tied to and powered by the sphere(s) controlling the biomes in which they live. If the occurrence/intensity of each of these two (or even better, three) types of magic could be controlled by worldgen settings, it would be easy as pie to create a world in which vampires & werebeasts roam freely, but praying fervently to one's gods and studying the secrets of life & death do nothing.

[Egan_BW]

Magic = Identity Politics? k

[therahedwig]

Magic = Identity Politics? k

I think the idea is that Magic will speed up globalization because it will influence values in cultures, which in turn means cultures change so rapidly it isn't possible to have cultural history, and due lack of that you get individualism/identitypol, but I am somewhat lost why it would be magic doing this, and not bards or histfigs traveling around, esp. as the biggest df world is what, the size of england, wales?

On top of that, I feel that maybe this view in itself is very eurocentric and especially modern, most history has been focused around great figures far more than it was about great cultures(as this is something nationalism fabricated from great-figures style history). Definitely most operas and epic poetry is about great figures with strong stances clashing with one another... Not to mention the way DF structures populations is around abstracted populations(entity pops) and great figures that change the course of history(histfigs), so yeah...

But yeah, I haven't been much participating in this thread because there's just a bit too much... angst.