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[hector13]

You need to define what you mean by bad faith, because if it’s what I think it means, I do it all the time.

Initially the play was to get more out of Leafsnail, but then you popped a vote on me in what seemed like an ultra-defensive fashion, so I was trying to balance out not slipping too much of what I had on you before I was ready so I could figure out why you were being so defensive, while simulataneously pushing hard enough on you that Leafsnail would keep chiming in.

It didn’t work out so well given it became double-faceted and I was really cocking busy, so the major post I made at the end of the day was a bit panicky because I did not realize the deadline was so close and it was right before bedtime after a day of travel and touristy things and socializing, so I didn’t unpack my thoughts very well.

Basically, you were a good D1 focus, and I still think you’re more likely anti-town than not, but what Leafsnail did still has me convinced they’re scum, and I’m pretty sure you’re not on his team ‘cause he was all “rolefishing is too obvious for scum” so he’s not going to defend a scumpartner during RVS. WIFOM-dependent, I guess.

PPE: @superdorf: my role changed :p what from and to what isn’t as important as it happening, I think.

Also, I don’t think you should be good on Tric, at least not yet. Just my opinion. Unless by slight you mean a teeny bit.

What makes you feel better about them?

[Superdorf]

Everyone: Might Maximum Spin's role have caused him to behave more oddly than usual? And given the stupidly powerful nature of his role, would no-lynch have actually been a good idea yesterday?

No-lynch would have been a good move with that action, but without others knowing about of the action, advocating a no-lynch for nonsensical reasons was a very stupid move.

Is it possible he was trying to avoid a premature roleclaim? Scum would've ganked him if they believed him, after all.

TricMagic: Two things: first, are you aware that commenting on a roleflip right after it's happened is a classic* scumtell?

Huh. Why's this a scumtell?

It gives the illusion of being quick to react to the game, even though it only gives information that everyone has got anyway. The refined tell is usually called "observation instead of information" meaning players overly focused on, for example, discussing game mechanics or overanalyzing the kill aren't spending their time scumhunting and thus are likely to be scum. However, experienced scum know this tell as well and thus know to avoid falling into it.

Hm, makes sense. Some night-kill analysis is useful, though, and it's going to get discussed right after the nightkill happens-- what's the difference between useful analysis and "observation instead of information"?

There are 10 players, of whom 3-5-ish are bad. Look for the liars, those whose stories don't add up, those who don't seem to be focused on lynching scum. Build a read list, even if you don't publish it, and remember that you must both doubt some and trust the majority to get a big picture that makes sense.

Hm, yes... I've been trying, but it's slow going. It didn't occur to me to keep a private readlist, though-- I like that. Thanks.

Night-kill analysis stream of consciousness: little to be gained from analyzing a 0-post lurker, no connections to be drawn. Clever decision, implies experience? Shakerag, Leafsnail, IcyTea, DA, and myself.

My thought: scum believes they have a clear lynch and don't need to worry about strong town. Could also be an inexperienced player picking randomly, but it's indeed likely that there's at least one experienced player in the mafia.

Good points both.

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But this is all useless meta stuff I'm posting. I'm gonna go reread the last few pages now and work on some casebuilding...

[TricMagic]

Really Dues? It's rather late on my end, but really? I went over that already, did you end up skipping the end of the day pages, by chance?

[TricMagic]

Why do you think SK is the way to go just now, as opposed to scum? SK is aligned against scum too; the enemy of my enemy is my friend*, no?

*friend who would as quickly stab you as help you, but scum will always actively stab town given the opportunity.

Was waiting for a MaxSpin reply. None here.

In the post before,

Leafsnail is not quite to the point I'd pick him over the others, and the IcyTea/hector arguments usually happen.

Also, I did add that old list over my post. Even back then, I felt hector to be more town than not.

At the moment, I still think MaxSpin is the better pick as SK over the others. SK might attack scum, but they also have to pick them out.

If I may ask a question, if Mafia all die, and SK is alive, does the game continue, or does the game end?

MaxSpin was playing under the assumption he would be able to win by himself, and Mafia is a team game, for all it's paranoia. You work together to lynch others.

[Superdorf]

I for one did skip over the end-of-the-day pages, because I was asleep, and then I didn't have computer access. I'm just getting to them now.

[IcyTea31]

You need to define what you mean by bad faith, because if it’s what I think it means, I do it all the time.

-- Some examples of bad faith include: a company representative who negotiates with union workers while having no intent of compromising; a prosecutor who argues a legal position that he knows to be false; --

Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving, characterized by an unbiased, honest attitude, which can be demonstrated in a number of different ways:
--
    Relevant facts and information are not purposefully omitted even when such things may contradict one's hypothesis; --

Even after being repeatedly told otherwise in no uncertain terms, you kept returning to your original thesis. You could have said even a simple "I think you're lying, that is too far-fetched", but you refused to even consider letting go of the idea of me rolefishing (which, for the fifth time, was not the purpose of those questions).

Initially the play was to get more out of Leafsnail, but then you popped a vote on me in what seemed like an ultra-defensive fashion

Yes, the purpose of the vote was to catch your attention and force you to be active to see you either put your foot in your mouth or prove yourself town. Not the first time I've done this.

It didn’t work out so well given it became double-faceted

What do you mean by this?

About Leafsnail: I don't know if he's mafia yet. I've probed a bit, but I'll need a stronger opportunity to latch on and commit the brainpower to chase after him.

Is it possible he was trying to avoid a premature roleclaim? Scum would've ganked him if they believed him, after all.

To avoid a premature roleclaim or mafiakill, you should blend in by either scumhunting (but not actively enough to become a target, it's a fine balance) or being a little scummy, but not enough to be lynched over it. Not make yourself the center of attention and proclaim that you want scum to win, in a game where there are no jesters, at least. I actually had to look back at the OP several times to confirm that it's impossible for Spin to be a jester.

[IcyTea31]

Further clarification to my definition of bad faith and intellectual dishonesty in regards to Mafia: I consider it a scumtell when someone who is playing a "logical" game fails to be honest enough times that it can't be an accident. In other words, when someone doesn't actually want to talk things through and give the town as a whole a clear picture of what's going on and why. I noticed that several players responding to your arguments with the premise that I was rolefishing, because your argument necessitated it, even though I wasn't rolefishing. That's a misled town, and someone misleading them.

[Deus Asmoth]

Really Dues? It's rather late on my end, but really? I went over that already, did you end up skipping the end of the day pages, by chance?

You went over why you though Spin was a serial killer, and why lynching serial killers might be a good idea. You never said why you thought it was a good idea to prioritise someone you thought was a serial killer over the three people you thought were scum.

[TricMagic]

For 1, having the SK around with the Mafia would theoretically mean two kills rather than 1. The second is how he was playing, what he said. I felt like he was SK, or as I have said, town with a Kill ability. He just felt that way to me. Might of helped if he didn't keep up that type of dialogue right up to the end.

[Leafsnail]

Everyone: Might Maximum Spin's role have caused him to behave more oddly than usual? And given the stupidly powerful nature of his role, would no-lynch have actually been a good idea yesterday?

Ideally people should be given a chance to roleclaim before they're lynched (since if they're lynched their role gets revealed anyway, and some roles may be verifiable). Unfortunately that wasn't possible due to the way the time limit hit last night and several late vote changes.

Ok, so someone asked me for a list of reads, so here's what I have after reviewing the thread (actual quote responses will be responded to as I read through the thread):
[...]
- hector13 - starts off on Icytea31 about rolefishing. May be claiming he has a suicide ability? Or maybe just being snarky. Claiming being unhappy with his role either way. Playing verbal footsie with IcyTea31. Believes in the heart of the cards vote. Switches focus to Leafsnail. I don't necessarily agree with his case on Leafsnail, but he's making a good argument for it. Also makes a good argument against IcyTea31. Slight town lean.
[...]
- Maximum Spin - Has a very ... unique theory on questioning and voting. Takes an early lazy vote on SuperDorf. So far seems to have contributed little of any real value to the game. Now talking about supporting a D1 no lynch. And that every vote should be treated like a hammer ... after having voted much, much earlier. Would pick Starver as daykill/top lynch choice. Would normally be a scummy move, but it's oddly consistent with his ... odd views. Seems to think highly of Nirur Torir. Overall read is null for D1, with a lean toward anti-town behaviour. Will be very interested to see how his playstyle changes on D2.

So we have a tie on hector13 and Max Spin.  I'm reluctant to vote for hector13, but I would be ok with a Max Spin lynch.

There's some pretty next level fence sitting going on in these posts. The closest Shakerag gets to calling someone scum is Nirur Torir, who he describes as "Overall, very slightly scum, and someone I would want to keep an eye on in the future". His vote was already sitting on Maximum Spin, but the read was described as null. So was this supposed to be a policy lynch? Or was your "slight town lean" on hector13 enough that you wanted to keep him alive specifically? You can't describe this as a "tie-breaker" compromise vote because at the time of these posts your vote was causing a 3-3 tie with hector13.

I do still think hector13 is scum. The point I raise against Shakerag above is somewhat built on this belief - it looks like he wanted to save him.

taciturn (adj) - (of a person) reserved or uncommunicative in speech, saying little. +1 point for using reticent as a synonym

obtuse (adj) - deliberately dull and slow-witted, slow to understand. -1 point for using confusing as a synonym.

One way to avoid having to write a massive stream-of-consciousness clarification post would have been to avoid writing a deliberately obtuse (adj - difficult to understand, especially deliberately so) answer in the first place.

I don't think anyone else is reading this massive wall of text argument between us as it stands, so I don't think repeating myself to respond to your list of repeated points will be productive. If anyone else in the thread has questions for me regarding this matter I'll be happy to answer.

One new point that I am interested in: was your vote on Maximum Spin was strictly self-defensive? You provided no explanation when you made it.

For now, I'm fine with lynching Maximum Spin for wanting to practically surrender the game to scum.

A quickly written post with interesting wording. You don't think he's scum.

Is there a specific reason you picked out IcyTea's post here and not hector13's?

[Nirur Torir]

(At your own pace. Your health, and spending time with hospitalized relatives, are more important than aggressive social game.)

Oh? Does it bother you when I call you scummy? Scummy Asmoth has a nice ring to it I admit. You somehow don't have a single scum pick yet, but don't seem to be advocating a no lynch.
Scummy Asmoth, if you're looking for scum at all, you're being timid about it and hiding your thoughts. Day's getting close to over, if you have anything that might help lynch scum, you should speak up.

It bothers me that your reading comprehension is apparently this bad.

I thought the example was self-evident by asking if it bothered you, and then using it: Being called scummy with little evidence annoys you, and, apparently, you alone.
Why is that, Scummy Asmoth? Are you scum?

It annoys you enough that you ignored my question, here it is again for easy reference:

randomgenericusername, KitRougard, and Deus Asmoth: D1's lynch came down to Hector or Spin, and you three weren't here to vote for either. I'd like for each of you to say who you'd have preferred to have your vote on, or no lynch, and why.

It's good to see you going after someone now, at least. Would you have tried to lynch Tric yesterday, if you were here?

One new point that I am interested in: was your vote on Maximum Spin was strictly self-defensive? You provided no explanation when you made it.

For now, I'm fine with lynching Maximum Spin for wanting to practically surrender the game to scum.

A quickly written post with interesting wording. You don't think he's scum.

Is there a specific reason you picked out IcyTea's post here and not hector13's?

The first time I read it, I read Tea's wording as knowing Spin wasn't scum. Hector's did not, and I assumed his reasoning was "breaking a vote deadlock away from self," which I don't consider scummy.

Nirur Torir: I'd like you in particular to comment on my above case on hector. Also:

Trying to read the cases leaves me feeling like all three of you are misleading or taking leaps of logic and none of you come out of it looking like town. I feel like Leafsnail's come out the most straightforward and least scummy. (And now I'm done trying to reconcile long-winded arguments for the day.)

[Superdorf]

Layers and layers and layers. Reading and re-reading and re-reading. Over and over again I've pored the material, and still I do not know who speaks ill and who speaks true.

Much now depends on this feud between hector13 and IcyTea. Leafsnail rushes into the fray, and the rest of us remain, hesitant, on the sidelines. I cannot understand much of what has been said, but my suspicions remain.

Hector: Where there was "rolefishing", now there is "hypocrisy". Where there was "mafia", now there is "serial killer". You give little information, and when somebody accuses you of some discrepancy, you declare the discrepancy to be part of your cunning snare set at an early stage. Why these traps? Why these deceptions? Why this reluctance to speak truth? Surely it is better for the town to speak with honesty, and so learn what is true and what is not?

KitRougard: Now that you have more material to work with, who would you call suspicious at this time?

Leafsnail: Could we get a readlist from you at some point?

notquitethere: TricMagic asked earlier, and I'm curious to know: If the mafia is slain, but the serial killer and at least two town members remain alive, does the game continue?

--------------------------------------
PPE: So apparently I talk funny when my brain is tired. 

[notquitethere]

notquitethere: TricMagic asked earlier, and I'm curious to know: If the mafia is slain, but the serial killer and at least two town members remain alive, does the game continue?

The game continues until one team wins.

[Nirur Torir]

I think my D2 plan is to get answers from Asmoth and Kit, and then to re-read the walls of attack and try to ask 'why' on various attacks that don't quite fit with each other.

Which seems so obvious that I don't know why they hurt my head.

[KitRougard]

Hang on a minute, I have an attack on Hector.

We've clarified that (at least one) of his abilities is Kill Yourself, which is a Kill. That puts him in the running for being SK.

Someone mentioned "With SK that's 2 NK not just one..." Well wouldn't the SK want to get stab-happy? Unless, of course, their KILL ability is Kill Yourself...

Hector! Stand for your theoretical crimes!