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[hector13]

Why do you think SK is the way to go just now, as opposed to scum? SK is aligned against scum too; the enemy of my enemy is my friend*, no?

*friend who would as quickly stab you as help you, but scum will always actively stab town given the opportunity.

[Nirur Torir]

@Nirur: Nah, it was me saying if I’d had more time to actually post and get more reactions I’d have more information on the two people that piqued my interest.

I was busy and also assumed weekend time would be free time like it usually is, so it’s my own fault for having friends and making assumptions. Ah well.

You make a point about Tric, though, but why is his buddying and defense of me more notable than Leafsnail’s buddying and defense of IcyTea?

Tric's here and talking. If Leafsnail checks the thread, me asking him to defend himself against you doesn't add all that much.

You’re also still voting for DA. Is he scum?

It's an irrelevant vote, heldover from a pressure vote. He's in no danger of getting lynched, so I can't be bothered to unvote.

Spin: Tric claims you're playing a solo game instead of a town game, and thus SK. You didn't respond to this accusation. Do you have a defense?

[hector13]

You don’t want to maybe lay out a case against someone 4 hours from deadline, no? :p money where your mouth is and all that.

[Shakerag]

Aww, what.  Day ends in like 3.5 hours?  On a Sunday?  That's bull.

[Nirur Torir]

I was hoping for more responses before making a decision.

I don't want to lynch Hector today. He spent the day mostly tunnelling, but has good justifications, and it's D1.
Tric is finally doing stuff, and I can't go after him for only acting at the end of D1, if I'm not going after others for only being active at the start of D1 and not being here now for the lynch.

Maximum Spin is my preferred lynch:

Spin's overall strategy is pro-scum. This combines with this, where he brushes my request for information aside by saying he has faith in my ability to figure him out, which feels too much like saying I have to see how townie he is to get him to like me.
And this, clarifying on the above, is just blatant buddying:

MaxSpin, what do you have faith in us to do specifically? And at least give an overview of my connection to the others.

I said I have faith in Nirur Torir personally. To lynch scum and win the game.

He plays things too secretly, trying to hide things. He keeps these secrets even when asked, just deflecting. I don't see anyone else as scummier, and even if it's just a weird playstyle, by this point I won't be able to see past it if he doesn't get lynched.

Hector's case on Leafsnail feels a little bit overexaggerated in parts, but it does feel like Hector was misrepresented in an attempt to get him lynched, which is a strong case for scum. I'd like to hear more from his attackers.

[TricMagic]

Why do you think SK is the way to go just now, as opposed to scum? SK is aligned against scum too; the enemy of my enemy is my friend*, no?

*friend who would as quickly stab you as help you, but scum will always actively stab town given the opportunity.

Was waiting for a MaxSpin reply. None here.

In the post before,

Leafsnail is not quite to the point I'd pick him over the others, and the IcyTea/hector arguments usually happen.

Also, I did add that old list over my post. Even back then, I felt hector to be more town than not.

At the moment, I still think MaxSpin is the better pick as SK over the others. SK might attack scum, but they also have to pick them out.

If I may ask a question, if Mafia all die, and SK is alive, does the game continue, or does the game end?

[Leafsnail]

Comes out of nowhere defending IcyTea - he's never seen scum rolefish, ergo rolefishing means someone isn't scum - and asks why I hadn't said why it was poor play. He also says I'm trying to run up a lynch on IcyTea, which is a lie, because I hadn't tried to get anyone to vote for IcyTea at that point. Or KitRougard, who was engaging in actual rolefishing. Wtf, I thinks, he doesn't know IcyTea or KitRougard are town, why is he discouraging me from voting anyone, never mind those two specifically?

I respond, laying out what bothered me about IcyTea in the first place (the discrepancy between his words and actions: hypocrisy, filtered through the exemplar of his rolefishing) in a deliberately taciturn, obtuse manner about poor play not being a scum-exclusive thing, and that I haven't tried to run up any lynch. I did this because Leafsnail hadn't been talking, and this would force him to respond.

So to be clear, you're claiming that you made your answer deliberately reticent and confusing to "force me to respond". I think that's bullshit. I was interested in the answers to the questions I asked, and would obviously still respond regardless of whether you gave a detailed and clear answer or a deliberately bad one. You were trying to brush me off and avoid explaining yourself - I do not believe this was part of some next level scheme.

But sure. Let's accept for a moment that you gave a deliberately unhelpful answer.

This is not what I agreed with, and shows a complete disregard for my clarification about why I was voting IcyTea in the first place. I never once said IcyTea was playing poorly, so that is not going to be any facet of any case I have against him.

Either willful misrepresentation or failure to engage with the game. In light of this:
[...]
He read the post, acknowledged I made clarifications, but ignored it. Willful misrepresentation it is, then.

Why would you then act surprised that I misunderstood what you meant if you were intentionally misleading in your response? This seems like the very definition of chutzpah - deliberately making your position unclear and underdetailed, then blaming the reader for "misrepresenting" you.

I did read the rest of your post, but as I said I didn't think any aspect of it addressed the argument I made. The argument against IcyTea was still very much strictly a rolefishing based one:

This part, in particular, being interesting. There were two questions you asked that had an element of role-fishing to them:
[...]
These questions could basically be reworded as "do you have a powerful role?", which is an interesting first foray to make into the game, particularly in light of you saying the roles are alignment-independent.

Thus, your conclusion was not quite correct. I don't think you're scum because you're not trying to figure out alignments, I think you're scum because you're trying to figure out who has a powerful role. In other words, who you don't want to be in the game because they might get in the way of your night game.

This merely lays out the "rolefishing from malice" theory, and as I'd said in my post I find that rare and implausible, and that "rolefishing from ignorance" is far more common. If IcyTea truly thinks that roles are unimportant then it follows that he'd think they're fair game for RVS questions - I don't see where the contradiction and hypocrisy that hector13 sees is coming from.

Why is he defending IcyTea, of whom town!Leafsnail knows nothing about, again?

I don't know whether IcyTea is town or not, sure. I haven't ever said he was. I just initially found the way you were focusing so heavily on rolefishing suspicious, and your responses to my questions about it have been so utterly bizarre and extreme that I cannot reconcile them with town play.

[Leafsnail]

Overall, it seems like you feel you cannot satisfactorily answer my arguments or explain your previous post, so you've instead decided to come in guns blazing and attack me instead. If you were a town player who'd deliberately made a confusing post I would've thought you'd cut some slack to the guy who has to read and respond to it, rather than jumping down their throat and calling them scum immediately.

[Shakerag]

Ok, so someone asked me for a list of reads, so here's what I have after reviewing the thread (actual quote responses will be responded to as I read through the thread):

- IcyTea31 - RVS questioning was a bit rolefishy, but not sure if people are blowing it out of proportion.  Votes hector13 because of hector13's pushing about said RVS questioning.  Has kept vote on hector13 the entire time?  Responding to questions well.  Case on hector13 feels weak, but it is D1.  Overall neutral read for now.

- Starver - MIA.  Null read.

- randomgenericusername - Claiming being busy IRL.  Noting TricMagic was worst scumbuddy ever.  Claiming useless role.  Doesn't engage, but IIRC that may be standard play for him.  Votes for TricMagic due to more meta behaviour than anything.  Not leaning scum, per se, but more just detrimental to town (regardless of his alignment). 

- hector13 - starts off on Icytea31 about rolefishing.  May be claiming he has a suicide ability?  Or maybe just being snarky.  Claiming being unhappy with his role either way.  Playing verbal footsie with IcyTea31.  Believes in the heart of the cards vote.  Switches focus to Leafsnail.  I don't necessarily agree with his case on Leafsnail, but he's making a good argument for it.  Also makes a good argument against IcyTea31.  Slight town lean.
 
- KitRougard - Seems to be coming from a ToS background.  Activity levels seem overall low.  Interactions appear to be on par for a newbie.  Did seem to be rather alert about the "kill yourself -> SK" idea.  Leaning towards a null read, due to low number of posts.  I could entertain the idea he's a newbie scum and getting coached in scumchat though.

- SuperDorf - Fairly strongly comes across as clueless town newbie to me.  Has read a lot of the archive.  Active, and engages.  Hmm.  Maybe not entirely clueless.  Fairly good town read.

- TricMagic - Early game seems disconnected.  Clearly trying to court the attentions of the FBI.  Activity level is consistent with claims about not playing the game.  Vote switch to SuperDorf seems retaliatory? Vote switch back to Max Spin.  Seems convinced Max has a kill ability.  Overall activity picked up later on.  Playstyle is kind of erratic, making it hard to observe.  Mostly a null read for now.

- Nirur Torir - I don't like his avatar.  Disagree with him on the tunneling topic.  Also is the fun police.  Did seem oddly defensive about Max Spin.  Apparently attacking a more skilled player just involves voting them.  And then didn't follow up in the slightest.  Switches vote to Tricmagic.  Playstyle feels accusatory and aggressive, but that might just be normal.  Also feels like ability gets better as time goes on.  Early game was much weaker.  Now on Max Spin for day end vote.  Had a stronger feeling of scum earlier in the day, which shifted more towards neutral later in the day.  Overall, very slightly scum, and someone I would want to keep an eye on in the future.

- Maximum Spin - Has a very ... unique theory on questioning and voting.  Takes an early lazy vote on SuperDorf.  So far seems to have contributed little of any real value to the game.  Now talking about supporting a D1 no lynch.  And that every vote should be treated like a hammer ... after having voted much, much earlier.  Would pick Starver as daykill/top lynch choice.  Would normally be a scummy move, but it's oddly consistent with his ... odd views.  Seems to think highly of Nirur Torir.  Overall read is null for D1, with a lean toward anti-town behaviour.  Will be very interested to see how his playstyle changes on D2.

- Deus Asmoth - Activity level low early on.  Does respond to and initiate questions.  Just little to work with.  Mostly null, leaning neutral.

- Leafsnail - Known veteran of the forum.  Activity level generally low, and is mostly reactive.  Would like to see more content and active scumhunting come D2.  Overall null, but leaning anti-town.



Deus Asmoth:

Do you think I should vote for Maximum Spin as well?

As of this very second, not in particular.  That opinion may change as I read through the weekend's posts.


Nirur Torir:

Shakerag: You've been quiet, and threw your vote on Spin days ago. Same question, anything to say before the lynch?

Ugh, working on it.  I just woke up and realized the deadline is in a few hours.  I was hoping to have more time to process everything on Monday.


Maximum Spin:

The reason: if Starver is scum then he is most likely teamed with someone who would fail to notice or account for a missing partner.

I fail to follow your logic here.

[Shakerag]

If I counted correctly, I think the votecount is:

- IcyTea31
- Starver - Maximum Spin
- randomgenericusername
- hector13 - Leafsnail, IcyTea31, Superdorf
- KitRougard
- SuperDorf - KitRougard
- TricMagic - randomgenericusername
- Nirur Torir
- Maximum Spin - TricMagic, Shakerag, Nirur Torir
- Deus Asmoth
- Shakerag
- Leafsnail - hector13

So we have a tie on hector13 and Max Spin.  I'm reluctant to vote for hector13, but I would be ok with a Max Spin lynch.

[Shakerag]

Also I think it is an hour and a half to day end.

[hector13]

Comes out of nowhere defending IcyTea - he's never seen scum rolefish, ergo rolefishing means someone isn't scum - and asks why I hadn't said why it was poor play. He also says I'm trying to run up a lynch on IcyTea, which is a lie, because I hadn't tried to get anyone to vote for IcyTea at that point. Or KitRougard, who was engaging in actual rolefishing. Wtf, I thinks, he doesn't know IcyTea or KitRougard are town, why is he discouraging me from voting anyone, never mind those two specifically?

I respond, laying out what bothered me about IcyTea in the first place (the discrepancy between his words and actions: hypocrisy, filtered through the exemplar of his rolefishing) in a deliberately taciturn, obtuse manner about poor play not being a scum-exclusive thing, and that I haven't tried to run up any lynch. I did this because Leafsnail hadn't been talking, and this would force him to respond.

So to be clear, you're claiming that you made your answer deliberately reticent and confusing to "force me to respond". I think that's bullshit. I was interested in the answers to the questions I asked, and would obviously still respond regardless of whether you gave a detailed and clear answer or a deliberately bad one. You were trying to brush me off and avoid explaining yourself - I do not believe this was part of some next level scheme.

But sure. Let's accept for a moment that you gave a deliberately unhelpful answer.

This is not what I agreed with, and shows a complete disregard for my clarification about why I was voting IcyTea in the first place. I never once said IcyTea was playing poorly, so that is not going to be any facet of any case I have against him.

Either willful misrepresentation or failure to engage with the game. In light of this:
[...]
He read the post, acknowledged I made clarifications, but ignored it. Willful misrepresentation it is, then.

Why would you then act surprised that I misunderstood what you meant if you were intentionally misleading in your response? This seems like the very definition of chutzpah - deliberately making your position unclear and underdetailed, then blaming the reader for "misrepresenting" you.

I did read the rest of your post, but as I said I didn't think any aspect of it addressed the argument I made. The argument against IcyTea was still very much strictly a rolefishing based one:

This part, in particular, being interesting. There were two questions you asked that had an element of role-fishing to them:
[...]
These questions could basically be reworded as "do you have a powerful role?", which is an interesting first foray to make into the game, particularly in light of you saying the roles are alignment-independent.

Thus, your conclusion was not quite correct. I don't think you're scum because you're not trying to figure out alignments, I think you're scum because you're trying to figure out who has a powerful role. In other words, who you don't want to be in the game because they might get in the way of your night game.

This merely lays out the "rolefishing from malice" theory, and as I'd said in my post I find that rare and implausible, and that "rolefishing from ignorance" is far more common. If IcyTea truly thinks that roles are unimportant then it follows that he'd think they're fair game for RVS questions - I don't see where the contradiction and hypocrisy that hector13 sees is coming from.

Why is he defending IcyTea, of whom town!Leafsnail knows nothing about, again?

I don't know whether IcyTea is town or not, sure. I haven't ever said he was. I just initially found the way you were focusing so heavily on rolefishing suspicious, and your responses to my questions about it have been so utterly bizarre and extreme that I cannot reconcile them with town play.

taciturn (adj) - (of a person) reserved or uncommunicative in speech, saying little. +1 point for using reticent as a synonym

obtuse (adj) - deliberately dull and slow-witted, slow to understand. -1 point for using confusing as a synonym.

The best place to hide a lie is in a nugget of truth?

You were interested in my answer, which is why you asked the question. This doesn't mean you're going to follow up on an answer, particularly one that is full and open. You had posted nothing of worth prior to that, I wanted to make certain you had to post something about it again afterward.

Notably, "misleading" is not a synonym of taciturn or obtuse. My purpose was not to spin you in circles and then call you an idiot when you fell over, it was to make you respond. Your response told me you're not interested in figuring out my intentions, it was to ask leading questions - you asked why I hadn't pointed out how what they're doing is poor play, despite poor play not being alignment-indicative and poor play having nothing to do with why I was so bothered by IcyTea -  so you could guide me away from IcyTea.

Using the eternal example for a leading question, you were basically asking me why I beat my wife, which presupposes I beat my wife. I told you I don't beat my wife, because that has nothing to do with why I'm interested in her, but then you said I agreed that I beat my wife.

A counterpoint to you saying pointless questions are good RVS things: the objective in RVS is to generate content quickly so it can be looked at during the day to determine alignment. If you ask someone a question of which you believe the crux is pointless, how will that aid that goal?

Rhetorical question because it doesn't. If it's pointless knowing about roles - as it is pointless to ask about the weather, or what alignment you were in your last game, or what alignment you like to play as, or what underwear your mother is wearing - it won't help you figure anyone out, keeping you in RVS hell forever. If you tell me otherwise, well, you're an idiot.

So, I note someone says something is pointless and they do it anyway - hypocrisy -  so I'm going to ask them about it.

Kit was rolefishing earlier, much less subtly than IcyTea, why have I not voted him? Because I don't give a fuck about rolefishing. IcyTea said rolefishing - rolefishing could be replace with literally anything else you can think of like rubbing shit on your willy or sticking your fingers in power sockets because I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT IT - was pointless but he's doing it anyway. I have a problem with that, not with rolefishing.

Do I need to be clearer? Are we comfortable with the concept hector gives no fucks about rolefishing? 'cause hector doesn't give a fuck about rolefishing. Put it in your sig if you have to.

I mean look at the field of fucks-on-rolefishing I have. Look how barren it is. I guess I have no fucks about rolefishing.

Turn your eye to the field of fucks-about-people-engaging-in-behaviours-they-say-are-pointless. Hypocrisy for short. Look how full it is. Look at the lush grasses, the bulbous fruits. The harvest will be good this year.

Just to be certain: I don't give a fuck about rolefishing, I care about hypocrisy. I don't give a fuck that it happened during RVS. If he said before the game had even started that roles were pointless we shouldn't care about them and then proceeded to ask about them, I'd still give a fuck about it.

PPE: *sigh*

I intend to vote for MaxSpin if this deadlock is not broken before the end of the day.

[hector13]

I'd much rather see Leafsnail go away, but I might forget within the next hour to come back, so

MaxSpin

[IcyTea31]

Damn, I won't be home before the deadline. My case on hector involves a past game that I don't have the time to look for, so I'll be sure to do that during the night. For now, I'm fine with lynching Maximum Spin for wanting to practically surrender the game to scum.

[Nirur Torir]

For now, I'm fine with lynching Maximum Spin for wanting to practically surrender the game to scum.

A quickly written post with interesting wording. You don't think he's scum.