Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Shakerag]

Hey all, it's the weekend.  Activity from me is not guaranteed.


IcyTea31:

- IcyTea31: You know, what's that point you put about quicktopics... Confused. Are you playing a game?

If Superdorf were in a mafiachat, they'd ask questions like "have I done anything stupid yet?" from their buddy, not publicly. This makes mafia membership unlikely.

I'm inclined to agree.

[Superdorf]

In general, I disagree with a D1 no-lynch. It feels too much like burning a day, and information on who tried to lynch and for what reasons is valuable.

Makes sense. Information is a good thing.

Day one lynches have a very poor hitrate. It's still worth doing them because if you don't lynch you're just giving the scum more kills that are guaranteed not to hit them. At least the town's lynch has a chance of hitting someone bad.

I'm not sure I understand, so let me try and paraphrase. You acknowledge that day one lynches tend not to hit scum-- but you believe that the slight chance of hitting scum is still worth that risk? Do I have that right?

What aspect of Hector's mindset did you intend to learn about with this question?

Whether or not he thinks like me and what kind of strategy he might be going for. I found the first Proc Gen Mafia's D1 to be very chaotic with the rapid back-and-forth swaps, so I wondered what hector's reaction to such a situation might be. The question was an RVS conversation starter, not a thoughtful scumhunt.

Seems reasonable to me. RVS is what it is.

Do you have such examples yourself?

A doctor-like role, for example, would like to know who the most powerful town roles are.

Mm, yes.

-----------------------------------
Oh hey, TricMagic lives! And he is... not happy with me. Wow.

- Nirur Torir: Has been posting. Hasn't been arguing, just jumping in to make a few points, talking for a bit, then withdrawing.

Wait, is this a dig at me or at somebody else? I assume it's at me, but I'm bad at reading sarcasm...

You know, for all your talk, you still keep a vote on the one who said they were busy. Why?

I said I'd hold you to you word, and I did. With a vote. I was hoping it would inspire you to greater effort today. And look, you're talking! And aggressive! Good things!

I mostly think it to be a delaying tactic for some reason, as you just coast along. The thing about votes is that they are a way to push, but you seem not to want to lynch anyone for some reason, always taking back. The fact that even applies to me is weird. It just doesn't make much sense.

I don't want to lynch anyone... yet. We have until Sunday to make our decision, and I want that decision to be as well-informed as possible-- so I really don't want to drop a hammer on anyone without some serious evidence to back that hammer up. Yes, that even applies to you. If my reasoning doesn't make sense, please enlighten me so I can find scum more effectively.

Now, to the reason I voted MaxSpin, it was to generate talk. Given that MaxSpin themselves has made a few joking posts, I wanted to use that vote to generate some talk in my limited time. And it has. I also believe MaxSpin to be an SK now, or have a kill as Town. Makes the most sense to me...

Vote-for-talk is reasonable. That's what I wanted to know; thank you.

You on the other hand.

TricMagic: Scum. He's not invested in this game. He's been quite clear about this. Unless he puts some serious effort in tomorrow, I'm inclined to believe he's scum-on-the-sidelines, jumping on the lynch that looks most reasonable to him.

I've been jumping, despite not playing the game? When before you asked for my reasons, and I said I would do so tomorrow, which it is now. MaxSPin has been my only vote this game so far, until now anyway, Superdorf.

"Not playing the game" is no good. We need you playing the game. We need you attacking people, and I'm very glad you're now doing that. Keep doing that.

What exactly are you accusing me of, though? Refuge in audacity? Reluctance to act? Or is this just a knee-jerk attack against the guy poking you?

-----------------------------------
In completely unrelated news, my laptop cord may or may not be dying. I think it should be good for awhile yet, but if I suddenly disappear, that's why. I'll try and request a replacement if it really does give up the ghost.

[Deus Asmoth]

Leafsnail:

Day one lynches have a very poor hitrate. It's still worth doing them because if you don't lynch you're just giving the scum more kills that are guaranteed not to hit them. At least the town's lynch has a chance of hitting someone bad.

Speaking of maximising chances of hitting someone bad, what's your opinion on the idea that starting the game with an uneven number of players gives that town a ~8% higher chance of winning? I've seen discussion in that past that no-lynching in games with an even number of players is a good idea to give the town a better chance of victory by having the first lynch with an odd number of players on Day 2.

Superdorf

Deus Asmoth: Who's most townie,

I am, obviously.

Very clever. Other than yourself, who comes off as most strongly town-aligned right now?

Actually... would you just give us a readlist? We need readlists.

No we don't, to be honest. Read lists are great when you have actual information to build one off, like role flips and people's actions in relation to them. We currently don't have that.

I wouldn't say anyone is strongly town aligned as far as I'm concerned. If you want me to pick someone, I guess I'll go with IcyTea.

Nirur Torir:

Who are you deciding between? Absolutely everyone other than yourself?

I mean, yes? That's how the game works? Are you saying there are people you're 100% convinced are town or what?

Yes, and I also said who looks scummy. They're a bit lower in the list, try reading further down.
The point is to poke at those who are trying to get through D1 without giving any information flow.

I read your post, which was the entire point of my question. Why did you decide to call the people you were pointing out scummy when you could have just called them out for lurking or whatever you actually think the problem with their play is, if you didn't actually intend people to think you thought they were scummy?

hector:

Spoiler: hector on votes (click to show/hide)

Your vote is your voice. It is the means through which you generate content. I vote for you, I am in the spotlight, and pulling you along with me. My reasons are scrutinized, your defense and reactions are scrutinized.

This sentence doesn’t express how fully I believe it: a vote is the single most powerful thing in mafia. You can’t run from it, whether you’re placing it on someone or have it placed on you.

People start talking when they see their name in bold red. Heck, if you’re just using your vote because you want to lynch someone, you’re doing it wrong, but that’s the reason why it’s so powerful. People think that’s what it means so people freak out. I’ve played around thirty games of forum mafia to this point and I still get a little jolt of adrenaline when I see someone voting for me, it’s brilliant.

Basically, if I were convinced my vote would be better served elsewhere, I wouldn’t be voting for IcyTea. Whether I want to see them lynched is a different matter, and you won’t find out until the end of the day. Believe what you want, I won’t tell you any different.

I don't think this is a logically consistent position. Yes, voting for someone is powerful, but only because it by its nature should indicate that you're willing to lynch that person when the day ends. Now that you've said that your vote doesn't necessarily mean that, what reason does anyone have to start talking when you've voted for them?

[Leafsnail]

I'm not sure I understand, so let me try and paraphrase. You acknowledge that day one lynches tend not to hit scum-- but you believe that the slight chance of hitting scum is still worth that risk? Do I have that right?

Yes, because a small chance of hitting mafia is better than just letting the mafia choose who to kill instead (they will not choose to kill mafia). Not lynching here is likely to result in there being more scum controlled kills for fewer town controlled kills. The statistical disadvantage that would give us outweighs any other consideration.

Leafsnail:
...
Speaking of maximising chances of hitting someone bad, what's your opinion on the idea that starting the game with an uneven number of players gives that town a ~8% higher chance of winning? I've seen discussion in that past that no-lynching in games with an even number of players is a good idea to give the town a better chance of victory by having the first lynch with an odd number of players on Day 2.

In a setup where it's guaranteed or very likely that there's only one nightkill No Lynching when there's an even number of players is sensible. It doesn't lose you a lynch and it improves your odds. However, there's guaranteed to be a serial killer in this game, so that maths doesn't apply. In this setup I think you just have to take every chance for a non scum-controlled kill you can get.

[Nirur Torir]

Leafsnail

Overall, you're certainly posting a lot of words, but in spite of allegedly having a lot of "scum reads" you're not really getting stuck into any meaningful arguments or attempting to craft cases. I put it to you that you're more interested in appearing active than actually finding mafia members - what do you say to that?

I'm still figuring out how to scumhunt. I want to look for scum based on what someone has accomplished (or tried to accomplish), or if they're voting strangely.
After last game, when the only game on the subforum died to half the players being inactive, I'm very worried by lurkers, and thus feel that spending the first part of the day trying to get people to do things is a good idea.

Like reply 164 would've been more concise and more useful if you just listed players you actually had a meaningful opinion on, rather than calling almost every player in the game scum.

How is it not useful to have records of people's reads? They're a very easy reference for looking back and seeing any weird changes.

IcyTea

TricMagic: Neutral. If anyone knows a way to get sense out of TricMagic, I'd really like to hear it.

This was before he'd done anything other than spend the first half of D1 saying he was lurking for another day. Is that really neutral behavior? (I suppose part of my issue with it that I find it grating.)

Asmoth

Nirur Torir:

Who are you deciding between? Absolutely everyone other than yourself?

I mean, yes? That's how the game works? Are you saying there are people you're 100% convinced are town or what?

Just myself.
The point is that we're closing in on the end of the day and you won't commit to saying anyone looks any more lynchable than any other, or asking many questions. You questioned Hector, are you leaning on him being scummier and thinking of going after him? Or if his answer doesn't trigger any red flags, are you right back to nobody looking any more like scum than anyone else? (or me, since you're questioning me in response to my question?)

Yes, and I also said who looks scummy. They're a bit lower in the list, try reading further down.
The point is to poke at those who are trying to get through D1 without giving any information flow.

I read your post, which was the entire point of my question. Why did you decide to call the people you were pointing out scummy when you could have just called them out for lurking or whatever you actually think the problem with their play is, if you didn't actually intend people to think you thought they were scummy?

Oh? Does it bother you when I call you scummy? Scummy Asmoth has a nice ring to it I admit. You somehow don't have a single scum pick yet, but don't seem to be advocating a no lynch.
Scummy Asmoth, if you're looking for scum at all, you're being timid about it and hiding your thoughts. Day's getting close to over, if you have anything that might help lynch scum, you should speak up.

Tric

Now, to the reason I voted MaxSpin, it was to generate talk. Given that MaxSpin themselves has made a few joking posts, I wanted to use that vote to generate some talk in my limited time. And it has. I also believe MaxSpin to be an SK now, or have a kill as Town. Makes the most sense to me...

Are you going to question him any? That's a pretty suspicious thing to leave yourself uncertain about.
You're not clear, but I'm unvoting you for the moment, since you bothered to make reads and it looks to me like Scummy Asmoth gets bothered by pressure.

[IcyTea31]

IcyTea

TricMagic: Neutral. If anyone knows a way to get sense out of TricMagic, I'd really like to hear it.

This was before he'd done anything other than spend the first half of D1 saying he was lurking for another day. Is that really neutral behavior? (I suppose part of my issue with it that I find it grating.)

Giving an explanation for lurking isn't a scumtell, as long as they then return and give the promised content. However, TricMagic has shown in all of the games he's been in that the only content he can provide is cryptic nonsense. He hasn't done or said anything that, keeping his "eccentricities" in mind, could be used to determine alignment. He hasn't done anything to help the town either, but this is, unbelievably, par for the course so I can't call it a scum read either.

[IcyTea31]

Oh, and a note about my readlist keywords: "Null" means "I don't know" while "Neutral" means "I've given up." I also use "Strong/Slight" to signify certainty and and "Town/Scum/Third Party" as exactly what it says on the tin.

I realize now that "Neutral" could also be interpreted as "Third Party", so I might have to come up with something else for that.

[Superdorf]

Wait, this is normal TricMagic behavior?

I'm... I'm gonna have to go through the archives again.

[TricMagic]

Good luck there.

MaxSpin, if you had a kill ability, who would you use it on and why?

[Leafsnail]

The day is getting pretty close to over. Does anyone have any cases they'd like us to consider? I'd much rather the town made a conscious decision rather than hitting some random person with 3 votes.

My preference is hector13. I didn't like his initial focus on rolefishing, but more than that I felt that his response when I asked him about this was incoherent and did not seem to me like an honest explanation of his thought process. Overall there has been a lot of evasion in his play, which has involved making arguments against people coupled with strange denials that those arguments should be heeded by anyone.

The backup choice I'd be most happy to spring for is @randomgenericusername. Their posts feel more like they're providing a commentary track for the game than actually playing it. This may be a playstyle thing, but surely it's obvious that you can go out and actually talk to people rather than just making post after post talking about people without actually engaging them? I'd like to see you actually get your teeth stuck into an argument or discussion, because right now your play just comes across as trying to maintain appearances.

I'm still figuring out how to scumhunt. I want to look for scum based on what someone has accomplished (or tried to accomplish), or if they're voting strangely.
After last game, when the only game on the subforum died to half the players being inactive, I'm very worried by lurkers, and thus feel that spending the first part of the day trying to get people to do things is a good idea.
[...]
How is it not useful to have records of people's reads? They're a very easy reference for looking back and seeing any weird changes.

That makes some sense. I wouldn't hound people for not posting walls and walls though as long they're engaged - people have different amounts of time to spend on the game and generating too much fluff can be counterproductive since players feel they cannot catch up.

- Leafsnail: Jumped in. Feels a bit too sharp, like a blade. They are just now talking, and feels too sharp for that. Doesn't help this is the first I've seen of them in the forums... Read: Too Sharp

I usually don't like people posting a bunch of filler but I'll make an exception for freestyle poetry about how cool I am.

[randomgenericusername]

The backup choice I'd be most happy to spring for is @randomgenericusername. Their posts feel more like they're providing a commentary track for the game than actually playing it. This may be a playstyle thing, but surely it's obvious that you can go out and actually talk to people rather than just making post after post talking about people without actually engaging them? I'd like to see you actually get your teeth stuck into an argument or discussion, because right now your play just comes across as trying to maintain appearances.

Yeah, I think I might have to ask for a replacement if this is getting too bad for everyone. I just have a general problem enganging with others, and I prefer not ot talk if it would be either repeating what others say or introducing myself into an ongoing conversation. My role is useless and my day game has always been weak, especially on day 1. I understand what I should be doing, but I don't really know how to exactly do it.

Right now, I don't have strong enough reads on anyone to vote for them, and I'm just lost on what should I be doing. I guess I could vote for TricMagic? Regardless of his alignment, it seems he's always a liability to the town because of the way he plays. I would like to give him a chance, but, like you said, the day is about to end and it's just better than nothing.

[TricMagic]

By the same reasoning, a useless day game is also a liability. No role is completely useless, RNG. And even without one, you still need to play, make reads, and swing.

[Nirur Torir]

However, TricMagic has shown in all of the games he's been in that the only content he can provide is cryptic nonsense. He hasn't done or said anything that, keeping his "eccentricities" in mind, could be used to determine alignment. He hasn't done anything to help the town either, but this is, unbelievably, par for the course so I can't call it a scum read either.

Ugh. I don't really want to go lynching people for having a meta strategy of being useless, and I don't know how to deal with the conflicts of that and a aiming at people who aren't playing in a pro-town way.

The day is getting pretty close to over. Does anyone have any cases they'd like us to consider? I'd much rather the town made a conscious decision rather than hitting some random person with 3 votes.

I'm interested in hearing from Hector and IcyTea, who have done the most bickering, about whether we should/should not lynch the other at the end of the day.

The backup choice I'd be most happy to spring for is @randomgenericusername. Their posts feel more like they're providing a commentary track for the game than actually playing it. This may be a playstyle thing, but surely it's obvious that you can go out and actually talk to people rather than just making post after post talking about people without actually engaging them? I'd like to see you actually get your teeth stuck into an argument or discussion, because right now your play just comes across as trying to maintain appearances.

Yeah, I think I might have to ask for a replacement if this is getting too bad for everyone. I just have a general problem enganging with others, and I prefer not ot talk if it would be either repeating what others say or introducing myself into an ongoing conversation. My role is useless and my day game has always been weak, especially on day 1. I understand what I should be doing, but I don't really know how to exactly do it.

Right now, I don't have strong enough reads on anyone to vote for them, and I'm just lost on what should I be doing. I guess I could vote for TricMagic? Regardless of his alignment, it seems he's always a liability to the town because of the way he plays. I would like to give him a chance, but, like you said, the day is about to end and it's just better than nothing.

Giving up is useless. Try. You're voting for Tric? We have another day you can try to question him in. Quote something he's said or done, attack it, and test his defense. Don't just say "I guess I'll vote for this liability, it's better than nothing."

Along that line:
Tric, are you going to do anything with Superdorf's responses to your attacks, or are you just done with D1 and happy to leave your vote on him?

[TricMagic]

Mostly. I would throw the same question to dorf though. Now that I've answered, what is your next move? Or do you plan to leave the vote there in hope for time to run out?

[IcyTea31]

I'm interested in hearing from Hector and IcyTea, who have done the most bickering, about whether we should/should not lynch the other at the end of the day.

Yes, hector is very lynchable right now, though I'm fine with something like Max Spin or Tric if we can't avoid a tied vote otherwise.