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[Maximum Spin]

Response Superdorf: In ToS, my home territory, finding out roles and comparing them to a role list (HEY! The Doctor already died! There can't be TWO! LYNCH!) or comparing their claimed actions to reality (I Roleblocked Jackson last night.
-Bullshit, I had him Jailed, can't RN someone jailed. LYNCH!) is usually how it goes. Roles and perceptions are love and life. But not here, where days last, well, days.

Oh I forgot I wanted to add: In my experience people are almost always wrong in cases like that. That is to say, in my experience there's almost always something more complicated going on than just "it was an obvious lie". I grant you that my experience is with players who are themselves too experienced to make obvious lies. Similarly, as mafia, I have myself engineered situations like that TO get someone lynched for seeming to make an obvious lie, and it works well.

[Nirur Torir]

Essentially, the best thing for town to do on D1 is to be completely open and honest with one another in order to build a ground state that can be used to immediately react to the first mafiakill by lynching correctly D2.

In general, I disagree with a D1 no-lynch. It feels too much like burning a day, and information on who tried to lynch and for what reasons is valuable. If someone's just buying time waiting for roles to do the job, that's a really boring way to play, on par with scum winning through half the game being inactive.

Relying heavily on information from who gets nightkilled is just begging to be drowned in wine.

[Leafsnail]

Day one lynches have a very poor hitrate. It's still worth doing them because if you don't lynch you're just giving the scum more kills that are guaranteed not to hit them. At least the town's lynch has a chance of hitting someone bad.

Rolefishing is generally a negative because it helps mafia members pick off powerful roles and makes it easier for them to fabricate claims later. That said I don't think I've ever seen a mafia member deliberately rolefish before - it tends to be way more trouble than it's worth. Regardless of alignment rolefishing tends to be a result of a poor grasp of mafia theory rather than malice.

I find your heavy focus on rolefishing suspicious, hector13. You haven't at any point explained to the people engaging in it why it's poor play or considered that they may be mistaken - rather, it feels like you're using it as an opportunity run up lynches on people.

I'll accept it looks like my focus is on the rolefishing, but pretty much everything else here is wrong. Poor play is not scum-exclusive, and I have at no point suggested I want other people to vote for IcyTea. Try again?

I could offer examples of why rolefishing isn't necessarily negative but that would be providing IcyTea with an out, and I don't feel like doing that right now.

In saying that, still kinda RVS and I don't like that...

Nah. I'm happy with what I'm doing.

I find this response confusing. You say that my post is wrong, but you don't elaborate on what the problem with it is and instead agree with my main point: that playing poorly is not the same thing as being scum. You still aren't really engaging with this idea in the vote you make on IcyTea further up your post. I do certainly think that rolefishing is anti-town, but I seriously doubt that a mafia member who knows it's anti-town would do it anyway, as the extremely unlikely benefits (rolefishing almost never works and the advantage it confers is not particularly big) is hugely outweighed by the negative attention it brings you. Of course a player who isn't aware it's anti-town might do it, but that applies regardless of alignment.

The idea that you don't want other people to vote for IcyTea is even stranger. I would've thought that the entire point of voting for someone while making an argument against them is to try and sway other people to your cause. Are you saying that you actually don't want anyone else to vote for IcyTea in spite of your case against them? Or are you objecting to me drawing this simple inference in the absence of you explicitly stating it?

I don't think your vote looks like RVS at all. Why are you trying to distance yourself from it like that?

I'm differentiating between "scummy" and "scummy D1 game."
The latter is based on the idea that town is better off with a D1 if everyone is involved. And so those who aren't adding much have a scummy D1.

I think you're trying too hard. Pushing everyone to produce filler content just causes burnout and buries less active people under endless walls of lengthy but meaningless "reads". Like reply 164 would've been more concise and more useful if you just listed players you actually had a meaningful opinion on, rather than calling almost every player in the game scum.

Overall, you're certainly posting a lot of words, but in spite of allegedly having a lot of "scum reads" you're not really getting stuck into any meaningful arguments or attempting to craft cases. I put it to you that you're more interested in appearing active than actually finding mafia members - what do you say to that?

[randomgenericusername]

Essentially, the best thing for town to do on D1 is to be completely open and honest with one another in order to build a ground state that can be used to immediately react to the first mafiakill by lynching correctly D2.

In general, I disagree with a D1 no-lynch. It feels too much like burning a day, and information on who tried to lynch and for what reasons is valuable. If someone's just buying time waiting for roles to do the job, that's a really boring way to play, on par with scum winning through half the game being inactive.

Relying heavily on information from who gets nightkilled is just begging to be drowned in wine.

I also agree with that D1 should always end with a lynch. Not lynching is basically a 0% chance of finding the mafia after all, and the lynch is our only weapon against the scum except on the cases in which we have a vigilante type of role. If it's a misslynch or not, it still generates very valuable information and not lynching would be equal to wasting the day. Even if it would probably end in losing a town member, one can still find mafia seeing who voted for who, as you said. I know this is just me repeating and agreeing with what you said, but I'm trying to show support of the idea.

[Superdorf]

I am very very sleepy, and I can't think straight anymore, and I don't know what's what and I'm too tired to come up with more questions to find out... but I said I'd put up a readlist, so here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Superdorf: Ayup, I'm town. Still a little tense, but I'm calming. Slowly.

Nirur Torir: Town. He's active, earnest, cautiously aggressive, and consistent. For the time being, I trust him.

Shakerag: Slight town. He's, uh, drunk, but he's poking at people in an abrasive sort of way. He's being awfully cavalier with his vote, but even that comes off as a push for more reactions.

IcyTea31: Slight town, for now. He's sparring hard with hector, but I don't yet see anything incriminating there from either of them, and Icy's otherwise been question-poking people as normal. Of course, it's getting late, and I'm getting sleepy, so I'm not really in a position to judge this sort of thing... but eh.

----------------------

Starver: Null. He's... not here. Like, at all. I don't think he knows we're playing. Notquitethere, would you please send a prod his way sometime, if you haven't already? I'd like to hear from him, or at least from his replacement.

Leafsnail: Null. He jumped quick on hector for the rolefishing thing, after a long period of inactivity, but his words are sound. I don't yet know what to make of him.

randomgenericusername: Null. He's passive, but also apologetic? As a confused noob, I'm not one to judge somebody else's confused noobness.

hector13: Null. Weirdly obsessed with rolefishing, to the apparent exclusion of anything else. His words ring true, tho.

----------------------

Maximum Spin: Slight scum... but from what I've seen of him, he really is just eccentric this way. I'll have to do something to poke him at some point, but I'm not sure how to go about it anymore and right now I've got other targets to chase.

Deus Asmoth: Slight scum. He's just... there. He asks questions, but the questions have no bite to them. He's either passive town, or scum trying to hide under the radar-- I don't know which yet, but I'm suspicious at any rate.

KitRougard: Slight scum. He's still doing little to attack people, and hector13's right-- Kit is strangely interested in the Serial Killer.

TricMagic: Scum. He's not invested in this game. He's been quite clear about this. Unless he puts some serious effort in tomorrow, I'm inclined to believe he's scum-on-the-sidelines, jumping on the lynch that looks most reasonable to him.

I'll have to look at this thing again in the morning and double-check my sleepy logic. In the meantime, it'll have to do. Happy hunting everyone.

[Superdorf]

EBWOP: Oh hey, Leafsnail just posted something against Nirur Torir's lengthy readlist. How ironic. I'm... y'know what? I'm too tired to argue. G'night.

[IcyTea31]

What aspect of Hector's mindset did you intend to learn about with this question?

Whether or not he thinks like me and what kind of strategy he might be going for. I found the first Proc Gen Mafia's D1 to be very chaotic with the rapid back-and-forth swaps, so I wondered what hector's reaction to such a situation might be. The question was an RVS conversation starter, not a thoughtful scumhunt.

Do you have such examples yourself?

A doctor-like role, for example, would like to know who the most powerful town roles are.

I asked you to look for what I was referring to, actually. You decided that meant I had a case. You then presented that case as though I were an idiot, presumably in an effort to discredit it, and came to a conclusion I hadn’t made.

You refused to explain yourself, so I had to assume what your primary point was.

You didn’t furnish us with what you thought, though, so how can we determine whether we thought the same as you?

By actually reading my posts before and after that question?

A statement of fact. What is the point of any vote?

"I'm not interested in building a case against you."

“I have no interest in letting my fish off the hook.”

"I'm interested in building a case against you."

Which is it?

You wouldn’t mind furnishing us with a reads list then?

D1 is too early for proper reads, as first impressions are uncertain and subject to rapidly changing as the game progresses.

Spoiler: First Impressions (click to show/hide)

Starver: Null. Insufficient data.
randomgenericusername: Slight town. Seems to be behind the curve on the burden of experience that I'd expect, but at least trying.
hector13: Scum. Expresses bad faith in questioning, builds a case based on an RVS question and refuses to follow up on it.
KitRougard: Town. Inexperienced in daygame and making mistakes, but not ones common to newbie scum.
SuperDorf: Strong town. Active newbie, not trying to hide. Asks game-related questions publicly: isn't in a quicktopic.
TricMagic: Neutral. If anyone knows a way to get sense out of TricMagic, I'd really like to hear it.
Nirur Torir: Town. Trying hard.
Maximum Spin: Slight scum. Advocating a day of inactivity and thus giving the initiative to scum is unorthodox and a bad idea, but apparently he honestly believes in it.
Deus Asmoth: Slight town. Some scumhunting, but yet to compile it into anything useful.
Shakerag: Neutral. Too drunk and experienced to gather useful information from.
Leafsnail: Slight scum. Gut read; townish, but almost too much so, something is off.

I noted a discrepancy and asked you about it. You’re the one that seems to think I had a case on you, which you were defensive about before I even made one.

Yes, because you asked me to make your case for you after you put your vote on me. If you had no case on me, why the vote?

Content is being generated by us being in the spotlight, whether you like it or not. I’m not afraid of it, why are you?

I don't the line of thinking that led you to this conclusion. Explain it.

In other news, I also voted MaxSpin, which freaked out Superdorf, and presumably got Shakerag involved in the action, prior to moving it back to you. That’s activity from seven people in only two or three posts. Decent strike rate, I’d wager.

It's a strike only if you've got solid town or scum reads right now. Generating content is useful, but you also need to use that content. For town reads, you seem to have accepted several players as unconditional town, based on your interactions with them in this post. For scum reads, you've been building a case lacking in good faith on me and bandwagoned on Max Spin.

Basically, if I were convinced my vote would be better served elsewhere, I wouldn’t be voting for IcyTea. Whether I want to see them lynched is a different matter, and you won’t find out until the end of the day.

"Pushing a one-point-case after receiving a response without making further questions doesn't mean I want to lynch the target." If you've got some surprise play you're planning that proves your townishness, now would be as good a time to do it.

IcyTea31: Hector's RVS-holdover tunnel has him bothered. Why?

Because I've come to believe that hector is scum, based on the bad faith he is showing.

I do certainly think that rolefishing is anti-town, but I seriously doubt that a mafia member who knows it's anti-town would do it anyway

Fallacy's BYOR 4. I was scum, and tried to perform a rolefishing-based gambit. The plan had to change a lot when everyone believed that no scum would try to rolefish because of how scummy it is.

[notquitethere]

DAY 1 - VOTE COUNT

?

7 to lynch.

Day ends: 5th May 7:45pm BST.

Starver has been prodded.

[IcyTea31]

My vote should be only on hector and not Spin, unless I have a second vote I wasn't aware of. Nirur is also counted twice.

[notquitethere]

My vote should be only on hector and not Spin, unless I have a second vote I wasn't aware of. Nirur is also counted twice.

Mistakes should now be fixed. Apologies!

[IcyTea31]

Hang on, hector still has two votes placed. I presume that is still a mistake?

[notquitethere]

Hang on, hector still has two votes placed. I presume that is still a mistake?

Trying to do a vote count on my phone was a mistake.

[TricMagic]

Maybe. Where did my vote go?

[TricMagic]

- IcyTea31: You know, what's that point you put about quicktopics... Confused. Are you playing a game?
- Starver: No game posts. Given they aren't on in the first place, No Read.
- randomgenericusername: RNG, Waffles. You don't give me the best vibes as for some reason, I can't remember any pointed topics you've brought up yourself. Slight Scum Read.
- hector13: More waffling, though mostly pointed out by others. Also, your Vote does not seem to be generating anything other than talk. Town-lean.
- KitRougard: Pretty sure this is normal for you Kit. Not enough to make a definite read on though. Neutral.
- SuperDorf: Below. Just, below.
- TricMagic: Solomon Complete. TricMagic.exe is ready to run Town OS. For BB!Melt, BB is vicious so far.
- Nirur Torir: Has been posting. Hasn't been arguing, just jumping in to make a few points, talking for a bit, then withdrawing.
- Maximum Spin: Scum-read. Third Party? I don't think mafia want a no lynch, as they want to bring town's numbers down quickly. An SK on the other hand would likely be safer if there are more targets however. Same with how he seems to be playing.
- Deus Asmoth: Not much for me to go on, lurky without a reason and not much posts. Scum-lean.
- Shakerag: How drunk are you? Slight Town. Thanks for the Illya by the way. She definitely helped out.
- Leafsnail: Jumped in. Feels a bit too sharp, like a blade. They are just now talking, and feels too sharp for that. Doesn't help this is the first I've seen of them in the forums... Read: Too Sharp


You know, for all your talk, you still keep a vote on the one who said they were busy. Why? I mostly think it to be a delaying tactic for some reason, as you just coast along. The thing about votes is that they are a way to push, but you seem not to want to lynch anyone for some reason, always taking back. The fact that even applies to me is weird. It just doesn't make much sense.

Now, to the reason I voted MaxSpin, it was to generate talk. Given that MaxSpin themselves has made a few joking posts, I wanted to use that vote to generate some talk in my limited time. And it has. I also believe MaxSpin to be an SK now, or have a kill as Town. Makes the most sense to me...

You on the other hand.

TricMagic: Scum. He's not invested in this game. He's been quite clear about this. Unless he puts some serious effort in tomorrow, I'm inclined to believe he's scum-on-the-sidelines, jumping on the lynch that looks most reasonable to him.

I've been jumping, despite not playing the game? When before you asked for my reasons, and I said I would do so tomorrow, which it is now. MaxSPin has been my only vote this game so far, until now anyway, Superdorf.

Game on.

[IcyTea31]

- IcyTea31: You know, what's that point you put about quicktopics... Confused. Are you playing a game?

If Superdorf were in a mafiachat, they'd ask questions like "have I done anything stupid yet?" from their buddy, not publicly. This makes mafia membership unlikely.