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[Nirur Torir]

Nirur: You encouraged KitRougard to keep attacking you, but didn't really respond to his accusation-- why?

I didn't feel like getting into an argument about my motives over a one line accusation.

How about I strengthen it in my previous post, then follow up with an attack on Nirur!

Nirur, you compliment my move against you, then taunt me into moving farther. You seem to be banking on the idea that I'm too hot for SK to take a moment to scan you. And you're half-right, I'm not skimming your posts. But I am calling out what I read as attempted "Oh yeah? Really attack me. No? Still on about SK? Look at this determined little scummie..."

You're next on my lynch-list.

I can't follow what you're accusing me of thinking. Are you accusing me of calling you out for tunneling Hector? Okay, I guess I'll do that, but first:

What I want is for you to attack, even if it's me, because your attack on me is the strongest thing I've seen you do across the two games we've been in, and you're finally putting yourself out there.

Your attack on Hector is solely based on the same thing I attacked Hector for last game, both during RVS:

Code: [Select]

Hector: "I'm Jester"
Me: "I don't believe you, you're just scum!"

Code: [Select]

Hector: "Yep, I'm SK"
Kit: "I believe you, die SK!"It has no evidence other than an obvious line of sarcasm, and you're lazing about sitting on that instead of attacking me, or attacking Hector for something in the terrifying wall of text arguments, when you think you have something on me.

[Superdorf]

It also makes the obviously town player look on him more favourably, consciously or otherwise.

This. This possibility. This is what worries me. And I suspect both of you are doing this.

That was kind of my point with answering that question. I'm not going to answer for Kit.

So would you care to answer for yourself?

You're calling KitRougard out for something you yourself believe to be a noobtell. Do you think he's scum? If so, why? If not, why vote him?

Also, you didn't answer me earlier:

Deus, why are you voting for me again?

Why are you working so hard to protect yourself? First your vote/unvote on me, now this?

I accuse you of being more interested in protecting your own image than you are in hunting down scum. How do you reply?

[TricMagic]

I reply with the opposite. I want people to hunt me. That often allows me to find a mistake. As mistakes build, so too does my ability to retaliate.

My question at the moment is why people are only trying to pin Hector. You seem to have done so, since no other avenues have opened. Now what? What happens if he turns out to be town, do you hunt yourself? Or is there something else going on as people slide on through the day.

[Shakerag]

IcyTea31:

It says why I, in particular, am voting for hector.

To be less vague: because his playstyle matches that of a scum player in a past game, that being a purposely misleading debate tactic that has no place in a townie mouth (barring a gambit different from the one he claims he was attempting).

And what was hector13 being purposely misleading about, again?


Superdorf:

Shakerag: You claim to dislike Day 1 and its uncertainties. How will you be hunting, now that Day 2 is upon us?

Poorly, apparently.  I've been in meetings all day and am just now getting back to the thread.  I'm not really certain what information you're looking for.  I'll question people and determine scummitude from there.


KitRougard:

You say you were being facetious when you said your skill was Kill Yourself. How convinent that you essentially take back your words as they get weaponized against you.
You mention your role got swapped. How convenient you have a reason with which to use your other power, the one that isn't just suicide.
No, I will not lay off.
I will dig deeper until your corpse proves me wrong.

So you're going to carry a case on hector13, into D2, based on something hector13 claimed was said facetiously on D1?  You're not selling this for me.
Also, why didn't you vote hector13 on D1?  You could have possibly gotten him lynched.


Nirur Torir:

Shakerag:

Nirur Torir:  So have you given up on your plans to try and attack a more experienced player?  I'm also curious as to what you thought a single vote on Leafsnail (with no follow up questioning or accusations) was going to accomplish exactly?

The vote was, as stated, to pressure him to do more. He then proceeded to attack Hector. Success on that front, unvoted.
I also wanted to drop some of my feelings that bad things will happen if I attack experienced players poorly. I feel like scum hunting experienced players involves these really wordy walls of text and trying to analyze the acursed things and the thought that I said I'd do that, and feel like I now have to, makes me not want to even log in. How does anyone else deal with this, just skim them and go for the general gist?
So failure on that front.

Truth be told, while I can't presume to speak for Leafsnail, but if I was in his position your vote wouldn't have caused me to do a damn thing differently. 

Experienced players are still players.  Just go after them like you would anyone else.  You don't need walls of text, although some people are drawn to doing such a thing.  I don't recommend it; my eyes tend to glaze over when reading them.

Also, is your entire reason for voting Deus Asmoth just because you felt like he reacted to being called "scummy"?


Leafsnail:

While it's technically possible within the rules I think it would be very mean for NQT to let a "kill yourself" SK into the game. The SK is at enough of a disadvantage compared to a scumteam without losing their key ability.

KitRougard:
For what it's worth, I was a Serial Killer in the last Proc Gen Mafia as you can see here.

And I had the super awesome ability of "Once per night you can kill yourself. Action: Kill."  Go me.

NQT confirmed for very mean.  Actually, that was the role I ended the game with.  My starting role was:

Shakerag Undulating Necromancer Once per night you can kill yourself. Action: Kill.
Once per night you can give a random ability to everyone who is not targeting a random person targeting your target. Action: Gift.

Also, you said D1 that your personal second pick for the lynch would have been randomgenericusername, but you've done no further exploring down that avenue.  If hector13 got daykilled right now, who would you be looking at next and why?

[notquitethere]

Ugh, and if the miasma wasn't bad enough, a kobold has stolen the last anvil...

- IcyTea31
- randomgenericusername
- hector13 - IcyTea31, Leafsnail, KitRougard [3]
- KitRougard - Tricmagic, Shakerag  [2]
- SuperDorf
- TricMagic
- Nirur Torir
- Deus Asmoth - Nirur Torir [1]
- Shakerag
- Leafsnail - hector13 [1]

Day ends 7.45pm 9/5/19 BST or on majority lynch of 6.


Everyone: please do make sure I have your vote correct on the count.

[Nirur Torir]

Truth be told, while I can't presume to speak for Leafsnail, but if I was in his position your vote wouldn't have caused me to do a damn thing differently. 

Then how do you get someone who's done almost nothing, to do something?

Also, is your entire reason for voting Deus Asmoth just because you felt like he reacted to being called "scummy"?

Basically that. And because he wasn't doing much of anything. His last post took the wind out of my sails, but I don't see a reason to unvote.

Day won't last much longer, and I don't see anyone other than Hector, Tea, or Leafsnail being lynched.
Honestly, I'm biased towards Hector being town, because it felt like everything's based on his aggressive tunnelling for weak reasons, which is pretty much what I did last game, as town.
Perhaps because of that bias, I feel like his case on Leafsnail is the best, (which is a problem, I know)

IcyTea feels somewhat genuine. "This case is nothing, he keeps attacking anyway. He must be scum." And then it escalates.

Leafsnail only joined in when prodded to do something. And then stuck in.
I get the sense that his attacks are clean, made too carefully, and aiming to stir things up.
And he's very cagey about his reads.

So right now if I had to vote for a lynch, I'd go Leafsnail.

But I feel a bit different every day after more thought and another skim. Do you feel like this is .. anything? Or am I just missing something important?

Asmoth: Care to weigh in on Hector, Tea, and Leafsnail?

[Deus Asmoth]

Tric:
Why do I vote you? Let me count the ways:
- You had a read list on day 1 with three people you claimed to think were scum but didn't interact at all with any of them before the day ended, opting instead to vote for the person you thought was a serial killer. Setting aside the fact that your reasons for prioritising your SK pick over your scum picks for the actual vote, you not questioning the people you thought were scum sets off alarm bells.
-Your buddying with hector earlier in the day. You also ignored IcyTea's question pointing this out, and several points he made in the same post as that.
-You voted for IcyTea and left that vote on him because you wanted his response to your question. When IcyTea pointed out that he had already responded to that question you just dropped it, indicating that the response itself wasn't actually important to you and just a pretext for keeping your vote on him until another opportunity presented itself.
-You ignored a question I had asked you regarding why I was voting for you in order to ask me why I was voting for you.

Nirur:
Why don't you see Kit as a potential lynch but do see IcyTea as one?

or you're just responding aggressively for no reason other than you felt like it.

I don't especially care that you think I'm scummy, but the fact that your case so far appears to be based on little other than confirmation bias is worth noting.

Bravo, that's exactly right. There is no case on what you did D1, because you basically skipped D1.

The fact that this is your only response to my post kind of cements the point I made at the start of it.

Hector

@Leafsnail re: a hector-Shakerag scumteam: I’m not sure how my points are any less WIFOM than yours, to be fair.

It requires far too many assumptions before even touching the extra elements you entered into the equation with the night game, starting with there being only two in the scumteam.

Why does Shakerag and yourself being on the same scumteam require only two members? You claim that Shakerag would have come out of the woodwork to save you from a D1 lynch in this scenario, but he didn't have to do anything other than not change the vote he had placed earlier in the day. And given that he is an experienced player, why would he not have been able to explain this in the same way as he already did earlier today? And given that Leafsnail said that Shakerag being on your scumteam wasn't actually part of his case on you, does it matter if his points about it being a possibility are unlikely in your eyes?

Leafsnail:
If Kit had been faking their roleclaim, what would you have done?

Superdorf
Sure, why not.

- TricMagic - Scum. I have my reasons for thinking so above.
- hector13 - Scum-lean. Not my first choice for a lynch, but I think there's a reasonable possibility that he's scum. His interaction with Leafsnail, particularly in this post seems off to me.
- IcyTea31 - Also town-lean. His interactions with hector feel consistent.
- randomgenericusername - Null. May have been struck down by the plague. I am a bit suspicious of him claiming a lack of skills during D1.
- KitRougard - Slight town. The role reveal kind of came out of left field, but it's in keeping with what he's been doing for the rest of the game from what I can see.
- SuperDorf - Town.
- Nirur Torir - Null for now. I need to do a re-read to think about him.
- Leafsnail - Leaning town, based on the fact that I think hector is more likely to be scum.
- Shakerag - Leaning town.

[Nirur Torir]

Nirur:
Why don't you see Kit as a potential lynch but do see IcyTea as one?

I don't feel like Kit's done enough to be lynched today as anything other than a lurker, but feel like Hector-IcyTea-Leafsnail are intrinsically linked. And looking back, both Kit votes are questions, with no cases attempting to lynch.

or you're just responding aggressively for no reason other than you felt like it.

I don't especially care that you think I'm scummy, but the fact that your case so far appears to be based on little other than confirmation bias is worth noting.

Bravo, that's exactly right. There is no case on what you did D1, because you basically skipped D1.

The fact that this is your only response to my post kind of cements the point I made at the start of it.

I couldn't be bothered defending myself against something you said was written primarily for others. Re-reading it does make me think of something:

IcyTea: Asmoth claimed I misrepresenting him, which IIRC was a major factor in you going after Hector. Your thoughts on this post?

[Leafsnail]

For the record TricMagic reads as town to me, or at least non-mafia. To me it reads like he's posting without a filter and I feel like I can just see his thought process laid out. Plus I think any mafia partner would tell him to stop making weird posts, even an inexperienced one.

Also, you said D1 that your personal second pick for the lynch would have been randomgenericusername, but you've done no further exploring down that avenue.  If hector13 got daykilled right now, who would you be looking at next and why?

What kind of "exploring" would you like me to do with the guy who retired from the game for legitimate personal reasons? If he were my top target after day one I might still vote for them, but that isn't the case so I don't see what good firing questions at them could possibly do.

As for your question, it depends on the flip. If he's mafia then you for sure. If he's non-mafia then I'll need to reframe my understanding of the game. Ideally I'd like to follow up on RGU if they get a replacement. My next choice would be Nirur - they've provided reasonable answers when I poked them before, but their posts keep rubbing me the wrong way and I'd like to spend some time examining their game as a whole.

Leafsnail:
If Kit had been faking their roleclaim, what would you have done?

I'd vote for them, and strongly encourage everyone else to do the same. To be clear though I do accept KitRougard's clarification, it's a plausible mistake to make.

[Leafsnail]

Incidentally if the votecount remains similar I suggest hector13 should roleclaim at least a few hours before the deadline to give people a chance to react to it. Please don't hammer him before he has a chance to do so.

[hector13]

@DA: Losing one member of the scum team isn’t that big of a deal if there are three members, so it’s unlikely there will be efforts to save them if they’re a lynch candidate on D1.

Leafsnail said it looked like Shakerag was trying to save me, so it’s reasonable for me to assume he was considering us a team, as I imagine was the point of him drawing my attention to that particular paragraph by voting me, and the particular wording of it.

While he said his case doesn’t rest on the possibility of Shakerag and I being partners, he is using it to support the idea. What do you think Leafsnail’s main argument is on me being scum?

What is off about the post you linked, regarding my interaction with Leafsnail?

Why do you think IcyTea’s consistency is a tell at all, town or otherwise?

Did you notice he supported the lynch of the person he has claimed is scum for the entire game, when the tie was already broken by said scumspect? That his scum read of me is based on someone else’s meta? That his initial vote was a clear OMGUS during RVS that hasn’t moved since? The fact he suggested scum killed Starver during the night because they may have felt they had a strong lynch candidate for D2, which is very likely to be his top scumspect?

Why is consistency more important than any one of those?

Kit has been focused on the SK for the entire game, and thinks throw-away comments during D1 are me claiming SK. Why does an unforced, unverified role claim push the scales toward town, when he’s had zero interest in finding mafia? Does his uninterest in changing his view on me until I flip bother you at all?

Considering all that, why is Nirur a null, when he’s actually engaged with the game moreso than Kit? Presumably you’re going to come out and say he’s the SK, as that’s the only other alignment presently missing from your list? If not, who might be the SK?

What is it about me that pushes the scales toward scum?

Is your read on Leafsnail based entirely on your read of me?

Why is Shakerag town?

[hector13]

Oh hey Leafsnail.

I’ll claim if you drop a reads list.

[Superdorf]

So hey, weird idea: what if between Hector and IcyTea, one's the serial killer and the other's a mafioso? It'd maybe explain why they've been pushing so hard at each other... but then Leafsnail comes into it, and ach, now I'm confused again.

Hm. I've been thinking of this feud all game as a big spat between Hector and Icytea, and I haven't been taking Leafsnail into account. I should go re-read with that in mind.

Yeah. I think I'll go do that.

[hector13]

A’ight.

*clap clap*

Gather round. Lemme tell you a story.

Well, not really a story, more of a confession.

So, Kit is, against all odds, correct.

I am the serial killer.

I infect people, ‘cause I’m dirty like that, and I could target two people on N1. Consequently, I know that at least two people are going to die due to infection during the night. Not gonna tell you who, ‘cause that’d make things much less interesting.

This means, should you lynch me, the two infected die, and the scum target someone else during the night, four people are dead before tomorrow. This means six players left, and if none of those four dead are mafia - one assuredly is not - y’all are going to be in MyLo if there’s a 2-man scum team, or you’ve lost if there’s 3.

So, you can lynch me and giving the mafia team a huge step toward winning, or you can lynch or no lynch to your hearts’ content, and take your chances during the night.

[Superdorf]

Woah.

Woah.

I'm... I'm gonna need awhile to process this.