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[Loci]

When gay dwarves were added, no one started creating gay concentration camps in their forts, or making threads about creating gay concentration camps. Same thing will happen with transdwarves.

While that is apparently a common conceit, reality tells a rather different tale.

For instance, this old thread about the addition of sexualities was moderated and locked.

Perhaps more pertinent to the current drama, this thread on modding transgender sentients motivated another thread regarding their torture, as indicated by this lovely quote:

Smeeprocket, I must extend my dearest thanks to you for putting together this project. I have no doubt that it will offer me an endless source of fun.

I removed the thread created by Gnorm as concerns the quote above.  Gnorm has also been removed.

Ironically, Toady's judicious use of censorship is the reason why so many people believe the bay12 forums don't require censorship.

[clinodev]

Ironically, Toady's judicious use of censorship is the reason why so many people believe the bay12 forums don't require censorship.

Can vouch. I reported a horrible thread about a week ago when Toady was fully busy with other stuff, but it was still nuked in about an hour, not locked, just gone.

[Admiral Obvious]

I mean, no matter how you look at it. The topic as a whole is problematic to talk about, and usually devolves into something horrifying.

It's been so for the last 2100 years (probably longer).

Then you invent the internet and people start entrenching their positions on the issue irregardless of what's actually going on in the real world.

I use steam as my primary source to talk about games, using the forums. You've probably seen me in a few of the "stop censoring us" discussions.

As mentioned before, we can openly talk about stuff like flaying elves to death with minecarts shooting goblets, and we can create creative ways to murder nobles "because they mandated the kids get toys". I can kind of see how people saying they'd openly murder trans/intersex dwarves in game would warrant moderation, but it's ALMOST a double standard, especially considering it's a game.

Except for one thread, overall things have been relatively civil on Steam compared to most of the time for other games. My standards are probably quite different though from the rest of us here.

Edit: Okay, five minutes later and it's going downhill again.

[Manveru Taurënér]

I mean, no matter how you look at it. The topic as a whole is problematic to talk about, and usually devolves into something horrifying.

It's been so for the last 2100 years (probably longer).

Then you invent the internet and people start entrenching their positions on the issue irregardless of what's actually going on in the real world.

I use steam as my primary source to talk about games, using the forums. You've probably seen me in a few of the "stop censoring us" discussions.

As mentioned before, we can openly talk about stuff like flaying elves to death with minecarts shooting goblets, and we can create creative ways to murder nobles "because they mandated the kids get toys". I can kind of see how people saying they'd openly murder trans/intersex dwarves in game would warrant moderation, but it's ALMOST a double standard, especially considering it's a game.

Except for one thread, overall things have been relatively civil on Steam compared to most of the time for other games. My standards are probably quite different though from the rest of us here.

If trans/intersex dwarves were in the game already, and people were discussing killing them due to some in game annoyance they caused then sure, it'd be a completely different thing (albeit still problematic in some ways). Right now though, seeing as the feature is nothing more than an idea, all those posts are purely based on the real world concept meaning those people are just voicing their hatred of a group of people in a roundabout way, which is as justified to moderate as it gets imo.

Luckily things calmed down after the crackdown, though I'm it will more or less devolve again as you say, some people just can't handle certain topics. Hopefully it'll all just blow over when those people find something newer to be upset about, hopefully elsewhere.

[Cathar]

Ironically, Toady's judicious use of censorship is the reason why so many people believe the bay12 forums don't require censorship.

Most of the time, it doesn't. Bay watchers understand Toady is a rare ressource, better spent making DF, rather than moderating drama threads. But sure every now and then you can find idiotic edgelords getting nuked here and there, but that's the exception not the rule.

Edit : Streisand effect, the effect that transform this kind of absolute non-issue in do-or-die scenarios

[risusinf]

*peeks out from under the rock where he lives*

Well, that is why i isolate myself from society.

None of that noise matters though as Toady will likely do whatever he's planning to do anyway, and there is much more solid reasons for the Steam release to become a long-term failure which is the only thing that should be important right now.

[Untrustedlife]

I mean, no matter how you look at it. The topic as a whole is problematic to talk about, and usually devolves into something horrifying.

It's been so for the last 2100 years (probably longer).

Then you invent the internet and people start entrenching their positions on the issue irregardless of what's actually going on in the real world.

I use steam as my primary source to talk about games, using the forums. You've probably seen me in a few of the "stop censoring us" discussions.

As mentioned before, we can openly talk about stuff like flaying elves to death with minecarts shooting goblets, and we can create creative ways to murder nobles "because they mandated the kids get toys". I can kind of see how people saying they'd openly murder trans/intersex dwarves in game would warrant moderation, but it's ALMOST a double standard, especially considering it's a game.

Except for one thread, overall things have been relatively civil on Steam compared to most of the time for other games. My standards are probably quite different though from the rest of us here.

Edit: Okay, five minutes later and it's going downhill again.

Oh, hello there.

[Untrustedlife]

This could be a rather useful and interesting mechanic to add, despite the whiners on Reddit and Steam.

I don't spend a lot of time defending reddit, but while the small handful of bad on this topic in /r/dwarffortress has been bad, the little bit of it that was public was promptly heavily downvoted, and much mockery ensued. What I complained about above was mostly modmail & PMs. Really /r/dwarffortress is still "small hobby reddit," otherwise known as "good reddit," even at ~80k subscribers. The 4channers keep saying reddit's been "ruined by sjw's," so maybe they've given up on it. We can only hope.

I'm actually pretty impressed, tbh, I expected worse, but no one even started an independent "discussion post" on the topic. I was of course accused of censoring discussion posts anyway. eyeroll

Someone acused you of locking threads? Ahh well, its steam.

[schwartzhund]

As mentioned before, we can openly talk about stuff like flaying elves to death with minecarts shooting goblets, and we can create creative ways to murder nobles "because they mandated the kids get toys". I can kind of see how people saying they'd openly murder trans/intersex dwarves in game would warrant moderation, but it's ALMOST a double standard, especially considering it's a game.

I have to say, as development has progressed and the characters in the game react a little more realistically to death and violence, I personally can't take as much joy in the slaughter as I used to. Even when wiping out murderous bandits, it makes me feel bad when I decapitate one of them and his buddies all start shouting, "My friend Urist Hellvillain the Eater of Children is dead, I can't believe it! " If I recall correctly even Toady mentioned feeling bad about his own work during playtesting a couple years ago, when he'd toss someone's severed head into their family's house and all their friends and relatives started weeping and expressing their grief. I think, as you said, most violence in video games (or any other medium) is just cartoonish slapstick stuff that no one should take seriously. The violence against elves and nobles is great because it's over the top and because the targets obviously richly deserve it--the elves have no room to complain about having their bodies reduced to gristle in some player's overcomplicated deranged death machine because they're arrogant freaks who murder people over trees, similarly people enjoy exterminating nobles not because they issue mandates but because they try to use the dwarven justice system (which of course they themselves are immune to) to have innocent people jailed or killed when they don't get their way. There isn't a similar joyous vendetta against humans in DF, for example, because humans generally don't do bad things unless they're provoked. Other stuff like the mass butchering of cats and murdering useless migrants and such is a reaction to flaws in the game engine itself--it makes it difficult just to keep the game running when you have dozens of cats and gormless Soap Makers running around underfoot, but it's only a problem because it devastates your FPS and you couldn't just send them away or deal with it in any realistic fashion. It's such an unrealistic situation that you can't take it seriously.

Players openly daydreaming about murdering imaginary people just because of their own perverse obsessions and hatreds is different. It isn't real and it isn't harmful to anyone, though it obviously can make the community seem unwelcoming and such, but it does come from a very different place than someone drowning nobles because they cause problems in the video game, and I think that's worth acknowledging.

As far as comparing Bay12 and Steam goes, I'm sure it makes a difference that there is a barrier to entry here--you have to wait to get an account, and I would imagine a lot of people who just want to vent about something cool off while they wait and forget about it. If anything, I think Toady should make it more difficult to join this forum--perhaps only people who pledge on Patreon could be allowed in, for example, or he could spend some of the money from the game's budget to hire goblin cosplayers to besiege your house in real life and only those who survive may have an account. I'm confident that the Steam forum, on the other hand, will be like every Steam forum: some people slavishly inventing weird new praise for the game (like a Darkest Dungeon thread I saw once that said the game was brilliant because it implicitly taught players to use corporate stress management techniques, which it does not), some people spending all their time posting about how much they hate the game, some people posting about how much they hate people who post about the game, and the rest just asking random questions that vary from reasonable (how do I make the dwarfs fight the bad elfs?) to bizarre (I accidentally marry horse while playing Dwarf Fortress, please advice).

Anyway, censorship is always unambiguously good and free speech is always unambiguously bad. Anyone who disagrees should be punished for expressing their incorrect opinions. That's the way I live my life, and that's how every internet forum should be run. It's the best way to avoid controversy. In my experience, the people who whine the loudest about their free speech and about the mods being mean to them are the people who absolutely should have their voice and ability to participate in community taken away.

[Egan_BW]

Anyway, censorship is always unambiguously good and free speech is always unambiguously bad. Anyone who disagrees should be punished for expressing their incorrect opinions.

I absolutely support your right to voice this dreadful, terrible, wrong position~

[clinodev]

I was pretty much right there with you, (and I'm a huge advocate for "No, BaByCrUsHeR6969, dwarves don't like arenas, or fighting outside, or slavery, just read the raws and look at your suffering dwarves!",) until:

If anything, I think Toady should make it more difficult to join this forum--perhaps only people who pledge on Patreon could be allowed in, for example, or he could spend some of the money from the game's budget to hire goblin cosplayers to besiege your house in real life and only those who survive may have an account.

To which I say, "By Armok! Gatekeeping, from someone with a 2019 created account? What have we come to! Better to delete all accounts created after August 1st, 2014!" (Quit clicking my account summary! Rude!)

Although there is something to this goblin cosplayer idea, I admit! I mean, I have swords, doesn't everyone?

[Magistrum]

Ya younglings couldn't keep a gate even if the overseer chained you to it!
*Yells at distant cloud*

[Cruxador]

I was pretty much right there with you, (and I'm a huge advocate for "No, BaByCrUsHeR6969, dwarves don't like arenas, or fighting outside, or slavery, just read the raws and look at your suffering dwarves!",) until:

If anything, I think Toady should make it more difficult to join this forum--perhaps only people who pledge on Patreon could be allowed in, for example, or he could spend some of the money from the game's budget to hire goblin cosplayers to besiege your house in real life and only those who survive may have an account.

To which I say, "By Armok! Gatekeeping, from someone with a 2019 created account? What have we come to! Better to delete all accounts created after August 1st, 2014!" (Quit clicking my account summary! Rude!)

Although there is something to this goblin cosplayer idea, I admit! I mean, I have swords, doesn't everyone?

Obviously, the heart and soul of the game is from the big 40d popularity boom, when modding was good and carp were bad. Just ban everyone from this decade.

[KittyTac]

Is this like that "DF is a too casual game" guy?

[Untrustedlife]

I was pretty much right there with you, (and I'm a huge advocate for "No, BaByCrUsHeR6969, dwarves don't like arenas, or fighting outside, or slavery, just read the raws and look at your suffering dwarves!",) until:

If anything, I think Toady should make it more difficult to join this forum--perhaps only people who pledge on Patreon could be allowed in, for example, or he could spend some of the money from the game's budget to hire goblin cosplayers to besiege your house in real life and only those who survive may have an account.

To which I say, "By Armok! Gatekeeping, from someone with a 2019 created account? What have we come to! Better to delete all accounts created after August 1st, 2014!" (Quit clicking my account summary! Rude!)

Although there is something to this goblin cosplayer idea, I admit! I mean, I have swords, doesn't everyone?

Mine was created in january 2014, clearly we must delete all accounts created after january 2014
Then i'll be the master and not even you, the great clinodev would survive the great purge of accounts. And I, finally would be the top dog of this forum.

*his dream is to rule the df forum, this dream was achieved"

muahahaha
*starts laughing maniacally*
*starts coughing comediacly mid evil laugh*

But yeah, gate keeping is pretty silly i agree completely. (Especially from someone with an account created in 2019)