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[Cathar]

would you believe this is the first thing i've actually been offended by in this discussion

I was legit not thinking about you when I wrote that... but I've seen enough of those discussion to know people enter them with the desire to be offended and waving the flag of virtue to the world, which is why nothing ever come of them.

In this case especially, this conversation is 100% pointless. Toady just have to correct some reliquat of code and we'll have transgender dwarves, and nobody will give a damn. But ey, if we can't get offended at that, one way or the other, we better find something else amiright

QUOTED. Now there's no escape if it happens.

I stand by every word, I will eat my hat if Toady makes gender dysphoria into DF. Printing the recipe right now

[Jesterdwarf]

Well, people are already willing to kill everyone and everything in the game in very painful ways for no other reason that 'seemed fun', and this somehow isn't problematic. But killing transdwarves? No, we can't have that, no-no. That would be bigotry.

You misunderstand. I'm saying if dysphoria would be added, it would be convenient, gameplay-wise, to discriminate against trans people, which, yes, causes problems.

Nobody can stop players from doing what they want, but it's absolutely best that the game itself doesn't make it not just convenient but beneficial to discriminate this way. It leads to less trouble in general, for everyone, forever.

When gay dwarves were added, no one started creating gay concentration camps in their forts, or making threads about creating gay concentration camps. Same thing will happen with transdwarves. Go be worried about 'discriminaion' somewhere else. You can always try 4chan if you so desperately want to be told how much of a failure in life you are and how much everyone hates you.

[Putnam]

what

[Cathar]

Having one's son transition to elf is the kind of event that tests the absolute limits of dwarven tolerence tho. I mean I'm an understanding person but I don't know how I'd react.

Also guys, emergency group hug now, we're all friends here

[Manveru Taurënér]

When gay dwarves were added, no one started creating gay concentration camps in their forts, or making threads about creating gay concentration camps. Same thing will happen with transdwarves. Go be worried about 'discriminaion' somewhere else. You can always try 4chan if you so desperately want to be told how much of a failure in life you are and how much everyone hates you.

I'm confused, those things did happen on the steam forums (threads about making trans concentration camps, what torture would be best for them, etc), which is what started that conversation in this thread. Which then when those threads were removed lead to the whole censorship drama. Or do you mean that it'll all blow over once it's actually in the game and old news? (Intentionally ignoring the later part, cause nothing good could come out of me trying to comment on that).

[Cathar]

As I understood it :

Jesterdwarf says that those things never happened and he's right.
Putnam says adding an incentive for it would likely make it happen and he's right.

This conversation is pointless because Toady will not add the incentive to begin with.

On the steam forums, my wild guess (please correct me) :

People get upsetti spagetti about transgenderism and get offended
People get offended at the first group offense
Now the whole steam forum is a debate about transgenderism
Mods try their best but havent read about the streisand effect and try to calm things down
Now people scream about censorship

How much right am I?

[Manveru Taurënér]

As I understood it :

Jesterdwarf says that those things never happened and he's right.
Putnam says adding an incentive for it would likely make it happen and he's right.

This conversation is pointless because Toady will not add the incentive to begin with.

On the steam forums, my wild guess (please correct me) :

People get upsetti spagetti about transgenderism and get offended
People get offended at the first group offense
Now the whole steam forum is a debate about transgenderism
Mods try their best but havent read about the streisand effect and try to calm things down
Now people scream about censorship

How much right am I?

Close enough. I only saw parts of it as some had been removed already by the time I started looking through it, but there were some pretty vile posts (which were also removed soon after) and if the outright removed threads were anything close I'm not surprised the steam mods just purged the whole thing rather than sort through the mess. Some people insist there were completely civil and constructive threads lost in the process, which I doubt were as clean as they imply but I obviously didn't see them so eh. New threads have formed which haven't been locked or removed (since they actually have stayed civil for the most part) which kind of spoils their censorship narrative, but maybe it's just a matter of time until some particularly stingy mod notices. Putting the blame on Bay12 is kind of ridiculous though imo, even if Kitfox did some of the thread locking.

[Cruxador]

When gay dwarves were implemented, I don't remember much gay-hating commotion being here or in other places. Transdwarves will be no different.

Rather a lot of people were annoyed about gay animals mucking up their breeding programs.

Well, people are already willing to kill everyone and everything in the game in very painful ways for no other reason that 'seemed fun', and this somehow isn't problematic. But killing transdwarves? No, we can't have that, no-no. That would be bigotry.

You misunderstand. I'm saying if dysphoria would be added, it would be convenient, gameplay-wise, to discriminate against trans people, which, yes, causes problems.

Nobody can stop players from doing what they want, but it's absolutely best that the game itself doesn't make it not just convenient but beneficial to discriminate this way. It leads to less trouble in general, for everyone, forever.

It's not necessarily unrealistic or inconsistent, though. The game has always rewarded order and efficiency without regard for morality. Part of the problem is the relationships being broken; I think that once stress death no longer encroaches on dwarves like the heat death of the universe, and once killing a dwarf greatly upsets many other dwarves, killing a dwarf just because they're a bit more stressed than most will not be an attractive prospect regardless.

Yeah, uhm, can we drop the topic?

Participation in this thread is not mandatory.

Right, it's not really a topic I bother with much so forgot that's a distinction people make (and that doesn't make much sense to me at least, I'm very much of the nature over nurture view of most things in life).

There aren't nature-based gender roles either.

would you believe this is the first thing i've actually been offended by in this discussion

I think (hope) he probably referred to the people on the steam forums/twitter specifically, correct me if I'm wrong. Even though most of the "commotion" there are from different groups entirely.

Yeah, I think his statement is mostly accurate if applied to people who had a little shitstorm about it, but it doesn't imply that the people with opinions on the matter in this thread aren't DF regulars.

[Manveru Taurënér]

There aren't nature-based gender roles either.

Sorry, not being clear enough with what I mean, and was thinking of sex roles rather than gender roles, hard to keep track of all the word distinctions people make for these things (though a lot of what is attributed to the latter is rather linked to the former imo).

[therahedwig]

Yeah, uhm, can we drop the topic?

Participation in this thread is not mandatory.

Neither is charity work, I am trying to hint that the lot of you don't know each other well enough to discuss this topic, and everyone's digging their graves now.

[Cathar]

Basically, this. This thread is importing outside drama and I'm pretty sure it's forbidden, so maybe we can just stop

[Cruxador]

There aren't nature-based gender roles either.

Sorry, not being clear enough with what I mean, and was thinking of sex roles rather than gender roles, hard to keep track of all the word distinctions people make for these things (though a lot of what is attributed to the latter is rather linked to the former imo).

Sex roles are just reproductive, though. In DF the options are one, the other, both, or neither, which makes sense: From a biological perspective, that is very much how reproductive roles work, I don't think anyone wants to change that. Changing form later in life, as some species do, would be an interesting feature but I'm not sure there would be much benefit to gameplay because of it.

Yeah, uhm, can we drop the topic?

Participation in this thread is not mandatory.

Neither is charity work, I am trying to hint that the lot of you don't know each other well enough to discuss this topic, and everyone's digging their graves now.

Telling people to shut up isn't a charity, and thus far there's no post in the thread ruder than this one.

[Magistrum]

I feel like the steam will bring all these problems we didn't have to the table.

Like stated before, the only beef people had with homosexuality in the game was bringing a single male bull in the embark and it turning out gay (Can't those dwarves check before packing up? Put a Playbull in it's pen?), and everything else irrelevant. For now I think we from the forum must try our best to patrol the steam forum and give helpful answers, as I don't see it going smoothly by itself.
Now we will get a lot of people who genuinely wouldn't have even registered in the forum making their opinions heard, and boy, are those some trash opinions.

God help their moderators.

[Manveru Taurënér]

Sex roles are just reproductive, though. In DF the options are one, the other, both, or neither, which makes sense: From a biological perspective, that is very much how reproductive roles work, I don't think anyone wants to change that. Changing form later in life, as some species do, would be an interesting feature but I'm not sure there would be much benefit to gameplay because of it.

Not anywhere close to what I was going for, not really worth continuing the tangent to try but likely fail to explain myself though, so let's just agree that we probably disagree ^^

Telling people to shut up isn't a charity, and thus far there's no post in the thread ruder than this one.

Might want to scroll up a few posts. And considering that one maybe it is worth dropping it before Toady has to come in and sort things out.

[Inarius]

Transsexuality isn't only a dwarf/human thing, my first dog was a female with male behaviour, never came into season, and on top of that she was only interested in female dogs.
I just hope to see a transsexual intelligent dragon, some day . What will think people from steam, then ?