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[voliol]

Embark button should be highlighted somehow IMO to indicate it's importance. Would also help non-natives who may not know what the word means.

A different color (darker for the color-blind) should suffice, I think. Also, it feels like a "load profile" button is missing.

[Uthimienure]

1. If you can reduce the height of each line so more lines are visible onscreen, that would do wonders for speed of play (less scrolling).

2. Please, please, mouse optional, no mouse required, everything can be done with keyboard only.  Mouse is fine for those that like it, but for others not.
  a. Highlight or underline the hotkey for each item onscreen, like Dwarves, Items, Animals, etc...
  b. Use keys like tab & shift-tab to switch between columns, arrow keys, page up/down, for navigating the lists, or similar.

[ror6ax]

Can we please get some screenshots of how a somewhat active fort looks like with the new item graphics? Not cropped, just 3-4 floors with 20+ dorfs doing stuff.

[PatrikLundell]

I second Uthimienure: mouse support is fine, mandatory mouse usage is not.

I agree with the sentiment that it would be useful to cut down on scrolling by reducing heights where possible. I realize the images set a limit for the items, but the dividers between items can probably be cut down one or two pixels, and the category ones don't need extra space above/below the text. This would also allow the "Available Items" list to require less scrolling.

[Rekov]

The colors seem alright if not perfect. I imagine that the interface will also be moddable, but maybe not.

I think maybe people find a lot of the orange/brown too saturated? Here I've desaturated a few elements of the UI. My goal was to make the 'gold' of the scroll bars match the 'gold' of the highlighted "Items" button.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Starver]

Not sure it's a graphics issue. As one who strays a bit from the topic, it's why my feedback went into the Noobs suggestion thread.

Hotkey functionality (with interface indicators to it) was part of it, and asking for Category headers to have expand/contract behaviour might speed scrolling (with sensibly-volumetric categories, so you don't still have to scroll across hundreds of items within the one you're actually interested in. But keyboard scrolling (PageUp/Dn, and or shift-/ctrl-cursoring) can be much quicker and more precise than even a mousewheel scroller.

On graphics: I like the scrollbars. Though they could be slightly more changed (give 'em more a "brasswork" appearance to match the border stuff? i.e. roundness widthways, which is almost certainly possible... But everybody does that) yet they're hardly too Win95ish. If I had to guess, I'd say it's reasonably regraphiced TCL, more akin to a common FOSS game than an MS program of that era. The 'flatness' (far less bevelled than it could be) nature resembles a style that sits with8nnthe middle of styles that have gone in and out (and back in?) style any number of times over the decades.  And it works for me.

The text font looks like the default-Serif choice, unfettered by any actual selection so far. But I expect that's not been decided much upon yet. I doubt the MephDay team are {yet?) designing a whole characterset, so it'll be a choice to make later. Something Sans-y, I'd suggest (not Comic). It could be as fancy as a Celtic, or probably Rune-inspired (subtly,.not the whole-hog unreadable) to befit a given p3rsonal idea of mythology-reference. A 'Papyrus'-like influence might be interesting, but not actual-Papyrus.  There's a surprising number of fonts on this machine (Eras looks nice...) but nothing that really stands out to me. But probably not worth homegrowing anything for, on top of all the rest of the graphics work.

[clinodev]

I second Uthimienure: mouse support is fine, mandatory mouse usage is not.

I agree with the sentiment that it would be useful to cut down on scrolling by reducing heights where possible. I realize the images set a limit for the items, but the dividers between items can probably be cut down one or two pixels, and the category ones don't need extra space above/below the text. This would also allow the "Available Items" list to require less scrolling.

We've been told repeatedly since the very first AMAs the days after the announcements to as recently as earlier today that the keyboard system will be retained as much as possible. Here's Kitfox official today on reddit quoting Toady in the August FotF. Mayday was also confirming it today in the Kitfox Discord.

[Uthimienure]

I second Uthimienure: mouse support is fine, mandatory mouse usage is not.

I agree with the sentiment that it would be useful to cut down on scrolling by reducing heights where possible. I realize the images set a limit for the items, but the dividers between items can probably be cut down one or two pixels, and the category ones don't need extra space above/below the text. This would also allow the "Available Items" list to require less scrolling.

We've been told repeatedly since the very first AMAs the days after the announcements to as recently as earlier today that the keyboard system will be retained as much as possible. Here's Kitfox official today on reddit quoting Toady in the August FotF. Mayday was also confirming it today in the Kitfox Discord.

In that Kitfox reddit post, I was surprised (and dismayed) to see this, especially the "bahaha":

kitfoxgames
Steam and itch.io publisher ⚒️
36 points
·
8 hours ago
This is the first time I've heard someone ask for keyboard support rather than mouse support bahaha

[Cruxador]

Are these categories collapsible? Seems like a low-hanging fruit, at least from a design perspective. But if that's the case, there should be an indicator icon to make it clear that collapsed categories aren't just empty (or, under particularly bizarre worldgen outcomes, that empty categories aren't just collapsed). Conventionally, a little triangle to the left of the title that points down when the thing is expanded and right if it's collapsed, and  think it would be good to stick to convention in this case. If they don't collapse currently... Can they? How difficult would it be to add? It may not add a ton to the system, but it would add something and subtract nothing so if the amount of Toady's time that it takes isn't too excessive, I think it would be handy.

I second Uthimienure: mouse support is fine, mandatory mouse usage is not.

I agree with the sentiment that it would be useful to cut down on scrolling by reducing heights where possible. I realize the images set a limit for the items, but the dividers between items can probably be cut down one or two pixels, and the category ones don't need extra space above/below the text. This would also allow the "Available Items" list to require less scrolling.

We've been told repeatedly since the very first AMAs the days after the announcements to as recently as earlier today that the keyboard system will be retained as much as possible. Here's Kitfox official today on reddit quoting Toady in the August FotF. Mayday was also confirming it today in the Kitfox Discord.

In that Kitfox reddit post, I was surprised (and dismayed) to see this, especially the "bahaha":

kitfoxgames
Steam and itch.io publisher ⚒️
36 points
·
8 hours ago
This is the first time I've heard someone ask for keyboard support rather than mouse support bahaha

Yeah, that's pretty dire. I went and told her as much but assuming that's Victoria I think she's just mostly used to dealing with Gen Z folks and isn't very good at talking to other kinds of audiences. It doesn't really matter since in this case since it's not like she's the one deciding Toady's priorities in UI Design.

[Starver]

My take on the Your Items side is that in the absence of any icon (or even +/- text) you have no collapsing categories, it's just a section-header.

Unlike pre-Stram, it does group things[1], but I can't convince myself that it's related to the RHS category-button order, and so it might be first(-of-a-kind)-chosen order. Though it might still be tied to RHS order, which certainly retains a lot of the funny ordering of pre-Stram lists. I'd have been tempted to do a Food superclass that brought up various food(-related) subclasses like Seeds and Plants (on the left, separated by three other categories) and Eggs (on the RHS, almost a whole vertical screen apart from Garden Vegetables that might or might not (probably not) be emergent as Plants-category on the LHS in the current form.

Either way, there's no apparent method/use of collapsable/expandable categories on the RHS other than the scrollable Button List sets up the scrollable/filterable Item list.

(It's really hard to appreciate the full image, as it's so much more wider than the screen resolution on the machine I'm re-reviewing it on while I type in this/prior messages, and I've only just seen a prior error in my understanding. I could open it outwith the browser and scroll round, but right now I'm vertically scrolling down with the Page scrollbsr to find the in-post horizontal scrollbar, to adjust more left/rigt then scrolling back up to the image I'm trying to check. It is time consuming and a mouse-heavy task as the browser has no keyboard controls that work the in-post horizontality, that I know about.)

I can't tell if (as per current DF) selecting an item on the right makes it solely present to adjust on the left. You have item +/- buttons on both sides (disabled minus-signs for all visible RHS items where clearly no 'subscription' is made that can be reduced) so I don't think that's so any more. The Animal-Tab example shows non-zero selections at work, but in a list that has no (apparent) need for category buttons in a list. My suggestions in the other place included asking about a Search line for Animals, and further one that could perhaps filter by "Milk" or "Shear". If not that, then 'radio button' behaviour (could still be label-button, as per Items categories, but toggle-down, toggle-up in appearance) keyed to qualities such as these might act just as well for filtering those foreseen qualities of interest.


But none of that requires MephDay involvement, as it stands. Not in the *masterwork icons* realm, anyway.



[1] On embark I'd often remove all food (say) from my load, then re-add everything I still actually wanted and any other bits, in order to keep similar items together in the list. Which only ever mattered in the prep. screens, it had absolutely no purpose other than temporarily revaining an aesthetic.)
L

[PatrikLundell]

Are these categories collapsible? Seems like a low-hanging fruit, at least from a design perspective. But if that's the case, there should be an indicator icon to make it clear that collapsed categories aren't just empty (or, under particularly bizarre worldgen outcomes, that empty categories aren't just collapsed). Conventionally, a little triangle to the left of the title that points down when the thing is expanded and right if it's collapsed, and  think it would be good to stick to convention in this case. If they don't collapse currently... Can they? How difficult would it be to add? It may not add a ton to the system, but it would add something and subtract nothing so if the amount of Toady's time that it takes isn't too excessive, I think it would be handy.

I second Uthimienure: mouse support is fine, mandatory mouse usage is not.

I agree with the sentiment that it would be useful to cut down on scrolling by reducing heights where possible. I realize the images set a limit for the items, but the dividers between items can probably be cut down one or two pixels, and the category ones don't need extra space above/below the text. This would also allow the "Available Items" list to require less scrolling.

We've been told repeatedly since the very first AMAs the days after the announcements to as recently as earlier today that the keyboard system will be retained as much as possible. Here's Kitfox official today on reddit quoting Toady in the August FotF. Mayday was also confirming it today in the Kitfox Discord.

In that Kitfox reddit post, I was surprised (and dismayed) to see this, especially the "bahaha":

kitfoxgames
Steam and itch.io publisher ⚒️
36 points
·
8 hours ago
This is the first time I've heard someone ask for keyboard support rather than mouse support bahaha

Yeah, that's pretty dire. I went and told her as much but assuming that's Victoria I think she's just mostly used to dealing with Gen Z folks and isn't very good at talking to other kinds of audiences. It doesn't really matter since in this case since it's not like she's the one deciding Toady's priorities in UI Design.

It's worth pointing out to the ½ second attention span people that keyboard shortcuts is much faster than mouse pecking once you've learned them, and that keyboard shortcuts is something every software that's intended to be used heavily (such as 1000+ hour time investment games and professional software) should use both for ergonomic reasons and for productivity ones.

It can also be noted that Toady's FotF answer is not of the "yes, of course we'll retain keyboard support" type, but rather of a lukewarm "Yeah, we'll try to" kind, and the image is just another indication that this is something that will still be on the "remains to do" list when the time runs out.

[Mike Mayday]

I was initially going to suggest some arrow / triangle to denote that the categories are collapsible (they are!) but then I thought - since it's impossible to have empty categories, any category with no items is obviously collapsed.

But your're right that it might be a good cue to show people that the categories ARE collapsible, and then some people will be initially confused / assume it's an empty category before they know that it's impossible. Going to suggest the arrows to Tarn then!

[Starver]

Yes, triangles. That's what I should have said. (Aside from Windows-style "_" miminiser icons, the usual method tends to have triangles or "^"/”v"-chevronish "what direction things will move when I click this".)

Unless I'm still drawn to +/- because if passing keyboard focus over a (de)collapsable header (with some hover-style change to show that focus[1]) would it be confusing to use +/- hotkey to act on that this way, whilst acting on leaf as stock-(de)allocatoring, or would it be worse to come up with two more keys that do the job but never overlap[2], so need to strain the intuition of the user just that little bit further than strictly necessary.


But that's GUI, not graphics. In the sense relevent to this thread. It's a coding-level thing that's not really tilesetty in nature. Sorry, I'm not terribly good at resisting/redirecting the urge, on that point.

[1] I can't see those screenshots right now to see what even a mouse-hover might be doing to one element or nest of elements

[2] Arguable. If on a leaf item, the collapse-hotkey could quickly draw up the category to which it is a leaf, without moving there. And (if you have it so arranged) a second press collapses the supercategory to which the category is a leaf. Transfering keyboard focus to the thing that collapses, so 'uncollapse' keying expands outwards but you'd still need to tap down to leaf (or subcategory) to regain their focus. I mean you could remember last focii beneath anything so collapsed (either last one not navigated away from or every single one, so that it sortvof auto-jump-restores the most recent internal focus of whatever collapsee is relevent, but I could see that being confusing. At least as I write it.

[ror6ax]

Now that I'm looking at these screenshots more I'm even more concerned about the font. Will it be moddable like the rest of the graphics?

[Oab]

This isn’t necessarily just an art suggestion, but I do see a potential improvement for the overall visual here.

Thinking from a new player’s perspective, it looks a bit overwhelming. There is too much information in that screenshot, and being in a list form with no contextual tool tips like Ror6ax suggests here is a huge loss in tutorial potential. The bland look doesn’t help with this at all.

Like Vordak suggests, I think increasing the sprite icon size to at least 64x64 and the font associated with it would be a good start.

Having the icons in a pool rather than a list would also reduce the need for scrolling which helps reduce information overload. Players will find it more palatable with large icons. The icons of the sprite functioning as a quick visual identifier are of key importance.

Not sure if this is possible without more code work but a nice border around the icons would also be a nice touch or just more colors to give the boxes more form/depth. This would remove the bland office software look it has going on now.

The categories should also have a representative sprite icon associated with the object.