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Author Topic: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Ironhand - Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 459580 times)

Cruxador

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #840 on: February 15, 2020, 10:36:21 am »


Jester: The images you shown are amazing pixelart, but are not tile-based,
It's theoretically possible to work around this in DF by taking a tiled zone as a group and applying a texture to the block of tiles. Consider for example the old Sierra city builders were groups of four small houses would turn into a big four tile house. This is theoretically possible in all cases, but although it's a ridiculously poor use of time to do this for most cases, it might be a good idea for certain textures that are likely to appear in great amount (e.g. bare stone) to reduce the obviously unnatural appearance that tiling would beget. Random variety in which of several similar textures was applied to a tile or block of tiles would also be handy here.

In addition, there are certain key cases that are very likely to occur due to the sort of things that players like to make (double doors, long tables) which might be worth addressing in this manner.

Depending on how much hassle it would be for Toady to add this capability, naturally.
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darkhog

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #841 on: February 15, 2020, 01:14:06 pm »

Agree with Cruxador that it definitely would be possible, but I dunno how feasible it'd be. I'd suggest taking a look at different game called Odd Realm (it's on Steam) that is DF-like and has many of DF features (including multi levels, so it's not 2d like e.g. RimWorld) and has really good graphics and UI. Would be also beneficial for Toady to check it out to see how the UI could be improved (as Odd Realm seem to have really good one).
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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #842 on: February 15, 2020, 01:15:00 pm »

We had this idea for furniture, tbh. Merging tables next to each other into one large one. I have a working version of that, manually controlled by the player, in my own tileset using twbt. Not sure if toady will adopt something like this though. (Mostly because it's factually incorrect, showing 1 3x3 table while it's actually 9 tables)

But it's an unrealistically large amount of assets for most objects, especially the millions (billions?) of tree variants.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #843 on: February 15, 2020, 03:21:41 pm »

We had this idea for furniture, tbh. Merging tables next to each other into one large one. I have a working version of that, manually controlled by the player, in my own tileset using twbt. Not sure if toady will adopt something like this though. (Mostly because it's factually incorrect, showing 1 3x3 table while it's actually 9 tables)

But it's an unrealistically large amount of assets for most objects, especially the millions (billions?) of tree variants.

If one placed 9 square tables like that right next to eachother it'd probably look like 1 big one from certain angles/distances so I wouldn't necessarily agree it's always incorrect as such. Not really sure what Toady has planned for future larger constructions tho, may well be we'll actually get large tables or doors etc eventually when multi-tile creatures and constructions gets a pass.
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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #844 on: February 15, 2020, 04:18:13 pm »

In my own tileset (old screenshot):

How it looks? Here an example dining room I build:


There is a clear difference between single tables and those that merge.
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Ziusudra

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #845 on: February 15, 2020, 05:59:11 pm »

If one placed 9 square tables like that right next to eachother it'd probably look like 1 big one from certain angles/distances so I wouldn't necessarily agree it's always incorrect as such. Not really sure what Toady has planned for future larger constructions tho, may well be we'll actually get large tables or doors etc eventually when multi-tile creatures and constructions gets a pass.
Except that tables and other furniture don't take up the entire tile which is why they don't block movement.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #846 on: February 15, 2020, 06:04:35 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ah, yeah, I was imagining something slightly different, more along the lines of the right side but without the edges being removed. So not complete merging but more that there just won't be gaps where the floor is showing if you place two tables next to each other. (which works better horizontally than diagonally I suppose, but even just that would be good enough for me, I'd just design my longtables to always go west to east).

Except that tables and other furniture don't take up the entire tile which is why they don't block movement.

Well, maybe they should ;P (and also have it fixed so one could have several chairs work with a single table)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 06:09:33 pm by Manveru Taurënér »
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Cruxador

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #847 on: February 15, 2020, 10:30:15 pm »

But it's an unrealistically large amount of assets for most objects, especially the millions (billions?) of tree variants.
For something like trees, although making every possible tree would be ludicrous, there is a possibility that normal tile-built trees could look better with some procedurally placed joining pieces. Which isn't necessarily different than having ramps show slopes, it just means that what's shown for a segment is aware of what's in adjacent segments. Of course, if that segment is able to be a multi-tile sprite then that's a more powerful system, but I don't know what there's a lot to be gained from that with regards to trees specifically.
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Wokko

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #848 on: February 16, 2020, 01:19:32 am »

Can we have more mockup art please? Maybe even some world map mockups? Or something else that we haven't seen yet.
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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #849 on: February 16, 2020, 09:20:59 am »

Next month probably. :)
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Mike Mayday

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #850 on: February 19, 2020, 05:26:09 am »

Yeah, I'm intentionally avoiding mockups... they look great but they're a lot of work that I'd rather spend working on the actual product. Toady will soon start doing the coding, which will eliminate the need for mockups - you'll get actual screenshots instead! In the meantime, here's some creatures I've been working on recently:


Cave lobster, Manera, Yeti, Cave lobster old, Satyr, Reacher, Rutherer, Gorlak, Jabberer, Kobold, Elf, Dwarven plate armour, Gorlak (old), Green devourer, Giant tick, Giant cave swallow, Drunian, Giant Cave swallow (too big), Draltha, Giant toad, Dromedary, wolf, Sasquatch, molemarian, cave crawler, troglodyte, Stangler, naked mole-dog, giant mole, giant olm
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 05:29:34 am by Mike Mayday »
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clinodev

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #851 on: February 19, 2020, 06:18:59 am »

Yeah, I'm intentionally avoiding mockups... they look great but they're a lot of work that I'd rather spend working on the actual product.

I hear you, but honestly I think the old mockups still being on the Steam and itch.io pages is terrible advertising.

I shut the threads down as quick as I can, ("They're just mockups, no, you're not the only one confused by the ramp, no, strangely visualize is a really old thing, hey check out this thread on the B12 forum full of a year and 18 pages of updates,") but of course only a tiny minority of the people who see the Steam page or an article will ever see one of those reddit posts, or find this thread on their own.

Hmm, maybe Kitfox should link this forum thread on the Steam page ... .
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Mike Mayday

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #852 on: February 19, 2020, 06:27:27 am »

I'm hoping we can get a good screenshot going within 2-3 weeks. I'd have to spend a few days working on a good looking mockup.
I understand and share your worries, but at this point I'd rather just wait until we can produce screenshots.
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JesterHell696

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #853 on: February 19, 2020, 06:55:21 am »

Jester, you shouldn't expect DF to look as good as Stone Shard. That's especially well made art of this kind even among the professional world, and the people doing the DF pack are just modders who got contracts. They're only able to work according to their own skill level, and also weren't aiming for that style in the first place. They've already shown us enough samples, it won't have that kind of painterly quality or palette control. Additionally, things represented in Stone Shard don't necessarily cleave entirely to a tile system; making the 3D procedurally generated trees of DF look like those in your screenshots wouldn't be possible no matter the skill of the artists.

I've thought some of the stuff Meph has produce in the past was of "Professional" quality, never followed Maydays work say can't speak for him but I wouldn't mark Stoneshard quality level as beyond them artistically, I would say its to expensive financially, it was less of a "DO DF LIKE THISSS!!!!" and more of a "when I imagined full graphics for DF this is what I pictured mentally." its why I said it was how I Imagined a high definition tileset would look would

I was thinking Script trickery with the trees, with multi level view being slated for inclusion anyway I could see each level of tree above the current view level being shunted one tile north for the purposes of drawing them, then apply a semi-transparency thing to the branches and leaves to create that style of "tall tree", combined with a tileset that isn't top down but has a fake perspective like those posted on the first page and you get something like my hack job here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Do you think action/position based variants will be possible? examples being standing and prone sprites or dancing, singing and playing an instrument sprites?
Possible but not feasible. Since the sprites are meant to represent things accurately, each other possible state would need to include variation for clothing, facial features, and etc.

Even if the default tileset doesn't use it because of the reasons you've listed having it be a possible function of the graphics rewrite would be cool, then it could wither be added aftert eh fact or modded in by those willing but if the functionality itself never get done then it would end up as DFHack requirement thing, I would rather the functionality for this to be included in DF itself and not used then having to use DFHack to achieve it because it wasn't included in base.

Quote
As the contracted artists how feasible/realistic is such a thing as procedural constructed facial portraits based upon the preexisting descriptors for fortress mode description screens and adventure mode conversations?
Although this is doable, nobody made any mention of such a thing being planned, and it would require a certain amount of funding from Kitfox; since it's beyond what they've discussed, that may be a significant impediment. If not considering that, it's actually a pretty good idea for a way to extend support, but there would need to be some UI considerations for when dwarf faces would be shown. It would be a shame to do the degree of work that would be required and then sequester them into the unit description.

Never said it was planned, explicitly said it was based upon a suggestion that I had made as a QoL/Noob feature, most people in the mainSteam are used to seeing how a character looks not reading how a character looks.

I originally had the idea for adventure mode, I personally prefer adventure mode and once Adv. mode is more developed I probably wont play fortress mode at all so unit description was just my first thought, it could also be applied to Diplomat Meetings, Broker Trading, Sheriff Interrogations, Petitioners Requests and some announcements, so then when a dwarf gets a strange mood you see that dwarfs portrait.

Will it be possible to mod in larger Tilesets like say 64x64 or 128x128 for the truly committed?
Considering that's possible now and every indication is that strict requirements will actually become freer (E.G. transparency, units larger than their tile) I think you can be reasonably certain it will continue being possible.

Really? I thought there was an engine limitation that stopped larger tilesets from working without DFhack magic, oh well my bad.

Quote
Would/could it be possible for DF to switch between tilesets of different sizes depending upon zoom/scroll level?[/color] might make it possible to "expand" the official tileset after launch with higher definition tiles, provided DF sells really well.
That seems like a really awkward way to implement it, to me. Why not just make a bigger tileset and then let it resize automatically when zooming out? That works fine for current tilesets, after all.

Because resizing looks a bit dodgy I guess? its works but it is not the best aesthetically, a 64x64 tile set would look a lot better for adventure mode where you're a lot "closer" to the action while that might be too much for fortress mode where 32x32 looks better, if they did do both, one for each mode (unlikely I know), then allowing DF it dynamically switch between them based upon zoom level would be great, even just the functionality without being used would be great as then it could be expanded or modded in later.


It would be awesome if dwarves' hair matched their descriptions. It would be insane if their faces matched. What if a dwarf loses a leg? Does the graphic change? Could we see them in crutches?
Those are not too unrealistic expectations. ;)

Jester: The images you shown are amazing pixelart, but are not tile-based, and most things in it are just textures, not objects that can be interacted with or change. For example trees in df grow, lose leaves, change color, show flowers, seeds or fruits. Dwarves can cut them down, climb them, pick individual fruits...

In stoneshape, the trees are just images, with a "don't walk through trunk" clipping. Big difference.


It was less of a "DO DF LIKE THISSS!!!!" and more of a "when I imagined full graphics for DF this is what I pictured mentally.", on the issue of trees I never use DFHack but I thought some of the trickery it pulled could be used to to make it work.

I was thinking that with DFHack's trickery with multi level view being slated for inclusion anyway I could see each level of tree above the current view level being shunted one tile north for the purposes of drawing them, then apply a semi-transparency thing to the branches and leaves to create a style of "tall tree", combined with a tileset that isn't top down but has a fake perspective like those posted on the first page and you get something like my hack job here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I admittedly don't know that it could be done it just seems like something that could be done and its probably not worth the effort to do anything more then include the fuctionality for future expansion or modding, the the kind of tables you posted could be done without DFHack trickery even if not included in base/premium.
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Mike Mayday

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #854 on: February 19, 2020, 07:13:30 am »

Well, there's an interesting discussion.
I can honestly say the art in Stoneshard is way beyond my skill level, but then you also have to remember that DF is a completely different game. I consciously decided on a more contrasting palette and simpler details because a typical DF screen is extremely crowded - so the goal is to provide a clear visualisation of what's going on. So it's not just a matter of skill and being strictly tile-based, it's a also a matter of what you might expect to see on the screen. Also remember the locations in Stoneshard are hand-crafted to look good - there's no such thing in DF, where the locations are procedurally generated with almost no attention to visual attractiveness - and then we have to slap a graphics set on top of that and have it all be be readable and good-looking at the same time.

So yes- even if we had as much skill as the Stoneshard artists, it's impossible for DF to maintain a similar style without huge art-oriented changes to the whole game - which, I assume, nobody is really interested in.
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