Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Untrustedlife]

On my phone, please excuse the brevity.

Current tilesets will still work, but will need updating for two reasons:
- updating to the new set of base files, like any tileset does for every regular new df version.
- new sprites, if they want to make full use of the new graphics; or remapping old sprites to remain looking like they are.

So Phoebus could look like it always did, but over time people might improve it by adding new sprites, just like they did with twbt.

The paid and free versions will be identical as far as tileset authors and modders are concerned and should be interchangeable. Only big change is that the steam graphics are copyrighted and can only be used with the paid version.

ASCII version will be available too of course, most likely with an ingame toggle, similar to the truetype font and tile-based font are switched atm.

Rounded ramps is something I'll do for my own private set.

Any questions I missed?

Hi there meph, can you explain in simple terms to me why tarn cant just edit the default font images and get decent graphics out of that. Am trying to explain it to someone on reddit, i know the jist of it (its simply because that is what is used as the displayed font, as also happens in LIBTCOD which i use for my own roguelike games), but you are more initimately familier...

[Meph]

Font images aren't really a thing. Truetype fonts use glyphs saved in a ttf file. Those are monochrome.

Df currently uses a single 256 tile tileset. It's impossible to add more than that.

Adding graphics for most items, plants, etc, requires the same setup he uses for creatures atm: external folder with files specific to the ingame item.

That's required for the new update, as well as lots of other stuff, like merging its own sprites from components; transparency; multiple sets for the map, the menu, ingame...

[Untrustedlife]

Font images aren't really a thing. Truetype fonts use glyphs saved in a ttf file. Those are monochrome.

Df currently uses a single 256 tile tileset. It's impossible to add more than that.

Adding graphics for most items, plants, etc, requires the same setup he uses for creatures atm: external folder with files specific to the ingame item.

That's required for the new update, as well as lots of other stuff, like merging its own sprites from components; transparency; multiple sets for the map, the menu, ingame...

SDL actually lets you feed it a .png file as a font image doesnt it? ( http://sdlcontrols.sourceforge.net/sdlfont.htm ). It ends up being mostly indistinguishable from a tileset as you think it, since it is used for all text being displayed) Libtcod only allows png or ttf files (font images) aswell for its fonts ( https://libtcod.readthedocs.io/en/latest/core/console.html ).(The choice is ttf or an image in default SDL as far as im aware (and png works for this if its layed out as glyphs))

(so it is a thing its just sometime referred to as a tileset since it really is just being drawn on the console as individual characters and so is techincally a tile set)

Thank you very much . So Its transparency, more glyph space,  and such that necessitates this

[Untrustedlife]

*reworded my response sorry, i am not all here at the moment just woke up not long ago, need coffee

Guess they are called bitmap fonts. (an image that is just an array of glyphs) i cant believe i never called it that after 7 years developing roguelikes lol.

[jecowa]

On my phone, please excuse the brevity.

Current tilesets will still work, but will need updating for two reasons:
- updating to the new set of base files, like any tileset does for every regular new df version.
- new sprites, if they want to make full use of the new graphics; or remapping old sprites to remain looking like they are.

So Phoebus could look like it always did, but over time people might improve it by adding new sprites, just like they did with twbt.

The paid and free versions will be identical as far as tileset authors and modders are concerned and should be interchangeable. Only big change is that the steam graphics are copyrighted and can only be used with the paid version.

ASCII version will be available too of course, most likely with an ingame toggle, similar to the truetype font and tile-based font are switched atm.

Rounded ramps is something I'll do for my own private set.

Any questions I missed?

Thank you. For some reason I thought the Steam version was fancier version and Windows-only. Maybe because the Steam page lists Windows but not Mac or SteamOS + Linux.

[PatrikLundell]

The reason for the commercial Premium version currently isn't listed for other OS' isn't related to graphics, as far as I understand it from Toady's comments, but the demands of development for those platforms in combination with the commercial outlet requirements combined with his crummy setups and limited knowledge. I haven't seen anything indicating the non commercial version should drop support for other platforms, though.

[Cruxador]

The reason for the commercial Premium version currently isn't listed for other OS' isn't related to graphics, as far as I understand it from Toady's comments, but the demands of development for those platforms in combination with the commercial outlet requirements combined with his crummy setups and limited knowledge. I haven't seen anything indicating the non commercial version should drop support for other platforms, though.

Hopefully this means that if you have an OS other than windows, you can download the free compile for your OS, purchase the windows version, and copy over the media files from the paid version to the functional version, thereby gaining all the in-game benefits of the paid version and missing out on only a smidgen of the convenience.

If that turns out to be an involved process, I imagine someone in the community will make a script for it.

[darkhog]

Just asking a related question to Meph: Will your launcher (the one you use for your tileset and I believe for Masterwork) be a part of the Steam release or is Kitfox cooking one themselves? Since PyLNP isn't up to snuff and it's kinda ugly and Kitfox confirmed that they will want to have a launcher of some kind to manage mods, tilesets, etc.

[Meph]

No, it has nothing to do with my launcher. It would be the Steam workshop, and hopefully the file structure in the raws would change a bit. For example adding lines to an existing file automatically from a modded version, which allows merging mods to some degree. At least that's what I strongly recommended.

[Proudbucket]

Hopefully this means that if you have an OS other than windows, you can download the free compile for your OS

You cannot compile DF, Toady only offers binaries.  You will probably be able to buy the windows version and move the tileset files into your linux or mac version. Ethically I think it is fine and mechanically it should not be that complicated.

[JesterHell696]

Loving the stuff in the thread, I'm really looking forward to DF's Steam release.

I recently saw a game called Stone Shard on steam and its art reminded me of a high definition DF with multi-tile creature support and while Toady has yet to really start on the artistic rewrite, focusing on doing post release bug first before really diving into the art I can't help but wonder how extreme the rewrite is going to be, I was going to ask in FotF but previous post there about the official tileset have been redirected here.

I'll Lime green them just cause and sorry if they been answered already but I checked the OP and there is nothing there.

OK a spent over a hour and went though the whole damn thread, maybe add some more of the Information spread though out the thread into the OP? Anyway, while I am late to the party I'll still voice my opinions on some of the things discussed.


Creature Sprites:

I personally am in favour of the "realistic" depiction with the actual clothes and items a character is wearing/holding to be depicted, I don't think professions or nobles need to be identifiable at a glance as their profession or as nobles because you don't issue orders directly to your dwarves, you don't need to find the broker so that you can tell them to go trade, you do that at the trading deport and if you do need to find a specific dwarf it will most likely be faster from units/nobles screen then searching the fortress manually.

Also I think that it is really great for adventure mode, having your adventurer holding a sword and shield while they really wielding a great axe in both hands is less then ideal, plus dressing up you character is a staple of RPG's, everyone I know like seeing that shiny new armour on their character.

If profession are needed I would support the idea of an option/setting of choosing whether the game takes clothing colours from the material RAWs or from professions, aka depict what they actually wearing but players choose in options to present either the clothes real RAW colours or profession colours, since DF classic will still use professions colours I can't see why DF premium couldn't do it as an option, but maybe its more work then its worth.

Do you think action/position based variants will be possible? examples being standing and prone sprites or dancing, singing and playing an instrument sprites?

I ask because I just watched a LP of a game called Stone Shard and it looks kind of like how I imagined a high definition DF tileset would look in adventure mode, I'll post a link to the store page and trailer from it and link few images from the steam store page directly.

- Stoneshard store page-

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

https://store.steampowered.com/app/625960/Stoneshard/

-trailer-

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/apps/256773768/movie480.webm?t=1580410523

-images-

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In that last two images with the inventory/character sheet and conversation block it has a little portrait of the characters (not procedural), I had a suggestion in the suggestion forums back in December about making a paper doll portrait system converting DF's current text text descriptor into artistic composites, I ultimately dropped the subject because it does seem a bit resource intensive funding wise for a first pass.

Shonai did suggest I come here and ask you guys then but I figured it was really up to Toady as to whether it would get done and didn't bother.

Now after reading though the whole thread and seeing how you guys are in effect consultants on all things art I feel I should ask, both for your opinion and because, truthfully if the idea appeals to you, you might take it to Toady in house circumventing the suggestion forums processes altogether

As the contracted artists how feasible/realistic is such a thing as procedural constructed facial portraits based upon the preexisting descriptors for fortress mode description screens and adventure mode conversations?


Map Tiles:

I'm in favour of the full graphical maps over the "parchment" ones for world gen and legend but I could see something like Stone Shards parchment map for adventure mode.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I find the stripe good/evil thing a bit off putting, as someone else mentioned it looks like a "restricted area" warning, which while not completely inaccuracy doesn't mesh well with the rest of the map IMHO, would fit more with parchment maps then full graphical ones, I vote in favour of either something like the "fog" idea or just using the current colouring scheme, light blue for good, purple for evil, not ideal but IMHO better then stripes.


What is the reasoning behind choosing 32x32 bit art/tiles for in-game?

Is the only reason for 16x16 bit ones from maps to fit more map on screen at once? I personally would prefer 32x32 map tiles and have to scroll around.

Will it be possible to mod in larger Tilesets like say 64x64 or 128x128 for the truly committed?

Would/could it be possible for DF to switch between tilesets of different sizes depending upon zoom/scroll level? might make it possible to "expand" the official tileset after launch with higher definition tiles, provided DF sells really well.

[Cruxador]

Jester, you shouldn't expect DF to look as good as Stone Shard. That's especially well made art of this kind even among the professional world, and the people doing the DF pack are just modders who got contracts. They're only able to work according to their own skill level, and also weren't aiming for that style in the first place. They've already shown us enough samples, it won't have that kind of painterly quality or palette control. Additionally, things represented in Stone Shard don't necessarily cleave entirely to a tile system; making the 3D procedurally generated trees of DF look like those in your screenshots wouldn't be possible no matter the skill of the artists.

Also, having been in this thread for a bit, I can respond to a few things.

Do you think action/position based variants will be possible? examples being standing and prone sprites or dancing, singing and playing an instrument sprites?

Possible but not feasible. Since the sprites are meant to represent things accurately, each other possible state would need to include variation for clothing, facial features, and etc.

As the contracted artists how feasible/realistic is such a thing as procedural constructed facial portraits based upon the preexisting descriptors for fortress mode description screens and adventure mode conversations?

Although this is doable, nobody made any mention of such a thing being planned, and it would require a certain amount of funding from Kitfox; since it's beyond what they've discussed, that may be a significant impediment. If not considering that, it's actually a pretty good idea for a way to extend support, but there would need to be some UI considerations for when dwarf faces would be shown. It would be a shame to do the degree of work that would be required and then sequester them into the unit description.

Will it be possible to mod in larger Tilesets like say 64x64 or 128x128 for the truly committed?

Considering that's possible now and every indication is that strict requirements will actually become freer (E.G. transparency, units larger than their tile) I think you can be reasonably certain it will continue being possible.

Would/could it be possible for DF to switch between tilesets of different sizes depending upon zoom/scroll level?[/color] might make it possible to "expand" the official tileset after launch with higher definition tiles, provided DF sells really well.

That seems like a really awkward way to implement it, to me. Why not just make a bigger tileset and then let it resize automatically when zooming out? That works fine for current tilesets, after all.

Hopefully this means that if you have an OS other than windows, you can download the free compile for your OS

You cannot compile DF, Toady only offers binaries.  You will probably be able to buy the windows version and move the tileset files into your linux or mac version. Ethically I think it is fine and mechanically it should not be that complicated.

By that noun form of "compile" I meant "the result of having compiled" not "source code". What you said is also what I said; we agree.

[Erendir]

Would/could it be possible for DF to switch between tilesets of different sizes depending upon zoom/scroll level?[/color] might make it possible to "expand" the official tileset after launch with higher definition tiles, provided DF sells really well.

That seems like a really awkward way to implement it, to me. Why not just make a bigger tileset and then let it resize automatically when zooming out? That works fine for current tilesets, after all.

There is a difference in quality between automatically scaling an image down and drawing it in the smaller size.

[jecowa]

It would be awesome if dwarves' hair matched their descriptions. It would be insane if their faces matched. What if a dwarf loses a leg? Does the graphic change? Could we see them in crutches?

[Meph]

It would be awesome if dwarves' hair matched their descriptions. It would be insane if their faces matched. What if a dwarf loses a leg? Does the graphic change? Could we see them in crutches?

Those are not too unrealistic expectations.

Jester: The images you shown are amazing pixelart, but are not tile-based, and most things in it are just textures, not objects that can be interacted with or change. For example trees in df grow, lose leaves, change color, show flowers, seeds or fruits. Dwarves can cut them down, climb them, pick individual fruits...

In stoneshape, the trees are just images, with a "don't walk through trunk" clipping. Big difference.