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[bloop_bleep]

The problem with the examples you gave with Oxygen Not Included, Rimworld, etc. is that those games don't have different types of rock, so it all might as well be brown or whatever, even if hidden.

However, in DF, you don't know what the color of stone is until it's been revealed. It makes no sense to make all the hidden stone a shade of brown or something like that when it's hidden, because there is large variety in DF with stone colors, and in the game world all that stone that looks brown would actually be white and blue and green and yellow.

Thus I think it's best to use black or dark gray or some other dark, neutral, "default"-looking color to represent hidden stone.

[Rekov]

It's interesting looking at that Rimworld screenshot.

Looking at their 'tiling' textures like the different kinds of ground and the wooden floors, they aren't using tiles that DF does. They're using larger tiling texture that are simply revealed on the appropriate tiles. The tiles effectively act as masks for larger tiling textures, with the transitions blurred slightly.


I think that single tile thick walls with open spaces on either side look much better when they're solidly filled in, like in traditional dwarf fortress.

In this example from Vettlingr's set, the difference between smoothed and engraved walls shows up within or on top of the wall, which obviously doesn't make sense, but it reads very well which is probably more important.


This is just me playing around in Photoshop again with one of the WIP images. It's obviously not very consistent, since in some places I'm blurring colors together, and in other places I've got sharp boundaries. I know I like having single tile thick walls completely filled in. I'm not sure about two tile thick walls or anything else.


What if you guys made the detailed rim you draw around walls roughly 16px thick, and then diffuse the color from there? That would mean single tile thick walls are fully 'drawn' and solid without needing an infill.

[MoltenIdol]

The problem with vettlingr's background is that it looks like it contains information, when there should be none. It's unexplored rock (and doesn't look like rock). Sure, it's possible to exploit how DF builds its biomes and geo biomes to show the boundaries you know are there because you know the rules (assuming you do), but I don't think those "arbitrary" design decisions should be made visible, as they're more unfortunate side effects than intended functionality.

I Think its supposed to be a soil layer.

Unexplored should be hidden (which is a conscious design decision in DF). The fact that it's unknown can be conveyed in various ways, with and without variation (vanilla DF has some variation, for instance).

I agree, unexplored Should Indeed be hidden. Showing the texture of the "revealed tiles/walls", and then letting them blend into the fog of war/unexplored tiles would be the way to go.

[Uthimienure]

My vote is for unexplored to stay as it is.

[MoltenIdol]

The problem with the examples you gave with Oxygen Not Included, Rimworld, etc. is that those games don't have different types of rock, so it all might as well be brown or whatever, even if hidden.

However, in DF, you don't know what the color of stone is until it's been revealed. It makes no sense to make all the hidden stone a shade of brown or something like that when it's hidden, because there is large variety in DF with stone colors, and in the game world all that stone that looks brown would actually be white and blue and green and yellow.

Thus I think it's best to use black or dark gray or some other dark, neutral, "default"-looking color to represent hidden stone.

Use this to make something Nice to look at. Its abstract. It could be like, dark blue shades, very dark but not black, with Maybe Some small details in it, and glimmers of white. Like in heroes of might and magic 3, but revisioned somehow. It could Really add to that 'exploring a fantastic and mysterious world' vibe, in a suddle way.

All black doesnt sit well with me. It doesnt look good next to the bright, saturated colors of the tileset.
A dark gray would be better.
Maybe with small details and twirls in the unknown, like ascii represents it.

But take that last part, and make it Even more Beautiful and mysterious.

[voliol]

While pure black/dark gray does look fine, I think having some kind of subtle texture/adding details would be a positive. The little stars and crosses in ASCII don't only make for prettier mountains, they also make "flipping" through layers visible, which is very usable for a stairwell-user like me. It should also prevent some new players from accidentally shifting down a few levels, and then getting lost because they are not getting any visual response when trying to shift back up.

[CL3AR]

Maybe have unexplored rock be solid or have a super slight texture with occasional animated sparkles or something. Just to fill in the emptiness with something mysterious. Like voliol says, if everything is all grey, moving in z-layers won't have feedback. Maybe have some shadowy tendrils that shift through the darkness. Just anything to make different layers stand apart.

Maybe make it so that the deeper you go the more sparkles and tendrils you see. To emphasize that you might be digging too deep and too greedily.

[MoltenIdol]

This is just me playing around in Photoshop again.

This is it though. Just take that fog of war, and Exchange it with a suddle version of homm 3 fog of war but darker, and make it fade into the colors of the soil/rock. Or something equally beautifull, but more fitting the saturation of the other colors.

While pure black/dark gray does look fine, I think having some kind of subtle texture/adding details would be a positive. The little stars and crosses in ASCII don't only make for prettier mountains, they also make "flipping" through layers visible, which is very usable for a stairwell-user like me. It should also prevent some new players from accidentally shifting down a few levels, and then getting lost because they are not getting any visual response when trying to shift back up.

This. Very important quality.

[MoltenIdol]

Maybe have unexplored rock be solid or have a super slight texture with occasional animated sparkles or something. Just to fill in the emptiness with something mysterious. Like voliol says, if everything is all grey, moving in z-layers won't have feedback. Maybe have some shadowy tendrils that shift through the darkness. Just anything to make different layers stand apart.

Maybe make it so that the deeper you go the more sparkles and tendrils you see. Just to emphasize that you might be digging too deep and too greedily.

+1!.. if by tendrils you mean like, twirls and other details, thats CLEARLY not supposed to actually represent anything, but the possibilities of the unrevealed.

I would refrain from any actual animation, unless its very infrequent and rare. The less patterns, the better (when it comes to the unknown).

But overall, more art and mysticallity in the fog of war. Its something we have to look at a Lot, so Pretty, but Nothing too distracting. It Shouldnt stand in too big of a contrast to the explored areas, or in and way be visually disturbing. But it should be simple and pretty/mystical, to get the fantasy World imagination going.

I would personally prefer something dark blue, different shades and 'strokes' like on a painting almost, but pixels ofc. It might stand in contrast to Everything else looking so mundane, but it would Really add something if done right.

[CL3AR]

Imagine digging deep into the earth and feeling a sense of dread as you sense some vague and shifting eldritch darkness in the unknown behind the walls.  Would add a sense of progression as your dwarves carve a home through the forbidding depths in search of those enticing sparkles. Or maybe not that dramatic, just a few something here and there like the current DF sparkes to indicate that you're heading deeper.

[jecowa]

Grey background is more confusing than black. It looks like it's floor tiles.

[MoltenIdol]

Grey background is more confusing than black. It looks like it's floor tiles.

They grey in the image is too bright. If it was made darker it would work.

[Rekov]

Here is part of what I was talking about, mocked up with what I believe are constructed walls made from blocks, not sure:



Obviously you could come up with a pattern that's less regular than a series of elongated blocks, but the idea is that single-tile-thick walls get filled in completely.

[MoltenIdol]

You Should WANT to explore the unknown, just by looking at it. It Should look enticing and alluring. Tempting Even.

[CL3AR]

Can't it feel both tempting and a bit dangerous? Some sparkles to show that there's some riches hidding but also some malignant swirls in the darkness to mean that there's unknown dangers too. Or perhaps some other indicator. But either way, I want it to feel like your dwarves are too greedy for their own good and are embarking into an ancient place. Like a visual indicator of "digging too deep" and a foreshadow of hidden things in the depths to come.
Players spend so much time underground. I hope the unknown feels a bit mysterious, like the depths of a vast sea. Like if you make a grave mistake a bit of the FUN might spill in and overtake your fortress.