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Author Topic: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Ironhand - Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 460598 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1110 on: March 23, 2020, 01:47:29 am »

I assume the "animation" corresponds to what currently happens when e.g. trees growths evolve (or leaves/flowers fall) even with the Character "tileset", extended to grasses, even though the code underneath is slightly different. Thus, the "animation" would play out once per tile over a year (two in parallel if there's a shrub on top that's also maturing).

And, my guess is that the level of visibility is about right. Not too striking to be distracting and hide "real" shrubs, but enough to give a nice sense of change (the pebble plant may be a bit into the "hiding" side, but on the other hand, having one kind of grass that stands out a little provides variation on a higher level).
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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1111 on: March 23, 2020, 02:31:27 am »

That's correct.

Pebble plants exclusively grow in deserts and bloom a rather short duration.
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Cruxador

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1112 on: March 23, 2020, 11:21:21 am »

They would be less in-your-face as in the example; I tried to test out all the little sparkle animations I made in one picture. But apparently it does do it's job: Get peoples attention to that specific sprite. On this picture it might be a bit much, especially considering that nothing else moves.

Now imagine a fort with 100 dwarves, pets, some wildlife and vermin running around, flowing water...

Other places I'm considering animations for my own personal sett (and that's just me, not Tarn or Mike, animations are pretty much a stretch goal so far. I just think it's fun to do.):
 - Liquids like water/magma.
 - Fire/Smoke.
 - Tree leaves/Grass tufts gently swaying in the wind.
 - Flower buds opening. (2-3 frames, then stay get a still image. Better than grass that suddenly pops up fully grown flowers)
 - Workshops currently in use.
 - Glows, for example glowworms or the embers in a forge.
 - Machinery currently in use. (It already does that)
 - Creature Idle animation. (There is a reason most old-school RPGs have gently bobbing/breathing creatures, makes them stand apart from the static terrain)
 - Rain drops.
 - Hives with single pixel ants/bees buzzing around.
 - Mining/Woodchopping/Engraving with single pixel particles of rock or wood chips flying around.
 - Sparks/Blood pixels flying around when a unit gets hit in combat.
 - Plants growing in farmplots in stages. (Guess that counts as a very slow animation?)
 - Smell from rotting food/bodyparts.

I'm aware that it's not to everyones liking, but for my own personal adaption or future tilesets, I'd certainly love to include animations. With TWBT they are causing instability; the Steam update fixes that issue.
I hope you get the time/funding to add all* of this. Creature idle animations are probably not too likely due to the sheer amount of extra frames, but something like fire would only take even one frame to change from the tremendously unsatisfying state of fire which doesn't move to that which does. And of course, additional frames would make it prettier.

Bamboo to replace the placeholder that was in the grass list earlier.

I won't beat around the bush, this is bad. Worse than the placeholder. It looks like someone cut a few short stalks of bamboo and stood them there. This is not what bamboo, which is a live plant and not a harvested item, looks like. I get that you probably live somewhere bamboo doesn't grow, but at least find some reference images. Here, I'll do it for you: https://imgur.com/gallery/iI5EEJa
I labeled appropriate species. Note that since this is not a multi-tile tree, Bambusa oldhamii isn't what we're looking for, and I reckon that if you did look for reference pictures, some old growth forest of that is probably what steered you wrong. At least, unless there was photos of that only showing the trunks and not canopy, I can't think what else would have. But it's very obviously not the species meant to be represented. I put some good grass-like candidates for reference at the top (three images) and the rest, I think, would count more as plants or impassible sapling-type tiles, but I included them since it seems you have no conception of what live bamboo looks like in general.

Also, I'm not sure what you were meaning to represent with the color differences there. Live bamboo is green, and a stand of bamboo will normally have a mixture of live green and dead yellow (shaded out) stalks, the former of which will have a lot more leaves than depicted (as well as having tops), and the latter of which has no leaves but retains the twigs and branches from when it did. I don't think I've ever seen stalks in that grey-brown color.

Mcipher: We discussed this. I'm not sure where we stand atm, but Mike is more of the opinion "lets use fewer pre-set colors that look good", while I lean towards the "lets use perfect representation of the raw values". We have to see and test everything ingame before we can see how horrid that would look or not.

Grass growths. (Ignore the one static grass, it slipped in by accident)
 - Babytoe succulents
 - Pebble plant
 - Meadowsweet
 - Rush
 - Marsh Thistle
 - Cottongrass
 - Ignore, has no growths.
 - Mountain avens
 - Cloudberry



In general it goes "plant => plant + bud => plant + flower". Ingame the transition is staggered, invidivual tiles are slower/faster than the neighbours.
This stuff, on the other hand turned out a lot better. There's sort of an issue of density since plants don't just distribute themselves evenly over a field like this, but are either random (with heterogeneous spacing) or clumped. Only large woody things like trees have a strong enough murderous effect on their neighbors and live long enough for empty gaps to get filled in for the distribution seen in the meadowsweet, rush, marsh thistle, and cloudberry to be natural. Arguably the same is true of mountain avens but the different sizing achieves the same visual effect so it's fine. Other than that, the marsh thistle seems like it ought to be more magenta (their color isn't, overall, that dark) but honestly these flowers look great and I doubt most people would notice.

Oh, and the mountain aven flowers leave their shadows behind even when they're not there, but I assume that's just because these aren't finished.





* Maybe not sparks in battle since that's weird and doesn't happen outside of Hollywood
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 01:45:16 pm by Cruxador »
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Rekov

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1113 on: March 23, 2020, 02:30:54 pm »

We discussed this. I'm not sure where we stand atm, but Mike is more of the opinion "lets use fewer pre-set colors that look good", while I lean towards the "lets use perfect representation of the raw values". We have to see and test everything ingame before we can see how horrid that would look or not.

This is very interesting, and there are obvious drawbacks and advantages to each. If you use a limited pre-set, that makes it much easier for people to mod 'themed' presets along the lines of our existing color palettes. I think I lean toward your perfect representation of raw values approach, because those are also modifiable. It just makes it much harder to easily establish a very different mood by having a different color palette.

I'm not sure how tints work in DF either. You could theoretically have colored highlights on your sprite, and then the RGB value is multiplied over that. So for example imagine you have a mostly greyscale tree sprite, but you have yellow and blue highlights and shadows. Then you multiply the color of the wood from raw RGB over that, and you get a fairly complex, and not at all monochromatic result.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 03:18:01 pm by Rekov »
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Cruxador

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1114 on: March 23, 2020, 03:20:26 pm »

Yeah, I know it's not a vote but I also agree that the graphics should represent the game as accurately as possible where the game actually models things; colors are free of those places where Toady put in the time/effort to make colors diverse so the official graphical representation should reflect that. A limited or alternate palette is more the province of mods, especially since strict palette control isn't apparently being employed anywhere else.
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mko

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1115 on: March 23, 2020, 03:31:51 pm »

Yeah, I know it's not a vote but I also agree that the graphics should represent the game as accurately as possible where the game actually models things; colors are free of those places where Toady put in the time/effort to make colors diverse so the official graphical representation should reflect that. A limited or alternate palette is more the province of mods, especially since strict palette control isn't apparently being employed anywhere else.
And in case of tiles revealing that coloring is currently absurd/wrong/unwanted - then it may be tweaked. I see no reason to hide this.
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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1116 on: March 25, 2020, 12:40:29 pm »

Just wanted to update you guys on the ramp situation. Weird corner/edge cases looking much better now. :)

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Superdorf

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1117 on: March 25, 2020, 12:47:00 pm »

Heh, had to squint a moment to figure out what was going on with those rocks... looks good tho, especially that tangle on the bottom-right!

Only thing is, maybe soften the edges on those deep corners a bit? It's very clear and all, but it doesn't quite flow the way grass should.
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KickAssAndGiggle

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1118 on: March 25, 2020, 12:47:44 pm »

I'm not an artist...can barely draw a stickman. So I'm not remotely qualified to offer any advice or criticism.

But, what I can say is this: THIS IS ALL LOOKING FREAKIN' AWESOME!!! I am so stoked for this steam version.  :D  :D  :D

Amazing job you two are doing in my opinion!
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1119 on: March 25, 2020, 12:52:22 pm »

Just wanted to update you guys on the ramp situation. Weird corner/edge cases looking much better now. :)



Looks rather good! Still a bit confusing, in the center area particularly, but honestly if you've decided to dig ramps that way in your fortress you've brought it upon yourself.
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SuperPluck

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1120 on: March 25, 2020, 12:54:22 pm »

Just wanted to update you guys on the ramp situation. Weird corner/edge cases looking much better now. :)



Thse look AWESOME
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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1121 on: March 25, 2020, 12:56:49 pm »

Mike (and Tarn) will be very happy to hear that. It took some effort. :)
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mko

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1122 on: March 25, 2020, 01:06:12 pm »

It looks great!

Left full rock tile looks flat (it is ramp, right?) and geometry on grass tile between rock tiles is a bit unclear.

But it is million times better than what was there before, and it is still WIP.
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jecowa

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1123 on: March 25, 2020, 01:15:22 pm »

The shading at the edge of this tile (in yellow) doesn't match the shading of other tiles as it blends with the lower levels.


I think the area marked in magenta here is supposed to be a single flat side, but the shading makes the 3 marked triangles look like they are all angled differently. The transition between the two tiles in the orange box don't transition seemlessly like the other tiles.
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Mike Mayday

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1124 on: March 25, 2020, 01:56:58 pm »

Nope, all three magenta triangles are at a different angle (the top one is supposed to be floor). Due to my mistake, the sprite is missing some shadow indicating this (I forgot to enable a layer).
The orange rectangle- there's an edge there, hence the lack of smooth transition.

Smooth corners / crevices are planned, I'll be testing it when we get multilayer view or when we decide we won't be having it...

I agree that the weird situations are still a bit confusing, but it's probably the best I can come up with. Once you see the full picture, I trust you will be happy with the general result (compared to the initial offering...).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 02:30:12 pm by Mike Mayday »
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