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[Kyubee]

I'm tired of being an ecodisaster. Dwarven as it is, fish are an important resource for a lot of my forts. My idea is basically, if you think ahead to catch some live vermin fish, or even regular fish, and place them in a "Pond" zone, you can designate it to a "Fish Farm", where food will be dropped in very frequently, encouraging the fish within to breed.rapidly. if you connect it later to existing oceans or rivers, you can use it to refill lost populations. You could also use this to introduce entirely new species to your waters, if you can somehow get live fish off outside sources without them "drowning".\

For bonus points, oceans dont freeze as deep, meaning the fish dont die off every winter in temperate oceans

[SixOfSpades]

*  Fix Fisherdwarves and Ambushers so that they absolutely will not attempt to fish or hunt until/unless they can path to a valid Fishery or Butcher Shop to perform the Return Kill labor.

* Add in a diminishing-returns effect to all Pond zones: Each time a fish is successfully caught in a zone, the time required for that same zone to produce another, similar fish increases significantly. This will make fishing a body of water to extinction take much longer.

* Add a "Fish in Moderation" option either to the Standing Orders menu, or Manager screen, or activated at a Fishery. With this option enabled, Fisherdwarves can/will notice that (due to the aforementioned diminishing returns) a body of water has been overfished, and so fishing won't be a cost-effective food source again until the fish stocks recover. Instead of "There is nothing to catch in the [AREA]," the game displays a "The fish aren't biting in the [AREA]," notification.

* Live fish in glass aquariums can be purchased from dwarven & eleven caravans, and specifically ordered from the Mountainhome (assuming they have access, of course). These can be released to breed in biome-appropriate bodies of water.

[Kyubee]

*  Fix Fisherdwarves and Ambushers so that they absolutely will not attempt to fish or hunt until/unless they can path to a valid Fishery or Butcher Shop to perform the Return Kill labor.

* Add in a diminishing-returns effect to all Pond zones: Each time a fish is successfully caught in a zone, the time required for that same zone to produce another, similar fish increases significantly. This will make fishing a body of water to extinction take much longer.

* Add a "Fish in Moderation" option either to the Standing Orders menu, or Manager screen, or activated at a Fishery. With this option enabled, Fisherdwarves can/will notice that (due to the aforementioned diminishing returns) a body of water has been overfished, and so fishing won't be a cost-effective food source again until the fish stocks recover. Instead of "There is nothing to catch in the [AREA]," the game displays a "The fish aren't biting in the [AREA]," notification.

* Live fish in glass aquariums can be purchased from dwarven & eleven caravans, and specifically ordered from the Mountainhome (assuming they have access, of course). These can be released to breed in biome-appropriate bodies of water.

The big problems are that
1. Vermin fish dont repopulate at all, and populations die off instantly the first time water either freezes or boils away. This is why in freezing or scorching biomes you dont find any pond turtles.

2. Big fish (Vermin are fine i think), die if put into water filled aquariums, of drowning, still.

But those are really good ideas. Continuing the fishing idea

Big fish can be caught like small ones, fished onto dry land

[Azerty]

Given that fish farming happened as early as 6000 BC, it might be included in.

[SixOfSpades]

Vermin fish dont repopulate at all

They certainly should, in fact all fish should spawn as vermin, and those of appropriate species should slowly grow into their non-vermin forms--provided that they have enough food & room to do so, of course.

populations die off instantly the first time water either freezes or boils away.

As is appropriate--although I concur with ice only freezing from the surface downward, rather than all at once. Once DF's tile mechanics improves, we should see tiles of only fractional ice: The top 3/7ths is ice, but the lower 4/7ths is still water.
There's also nothing wrong with some water sources being too small, or too isolated, to have fish. Some murky pools contain nothing but pond scum, it's a fact of life.

Big fish (Vermin are fine i think), die if put into water filled aquariums, of drowning, still.

Aquariums are functionally nothing but cages made of glass. If a cage can hold an elephant, an aquarium can certainly hold a sturgeon or whatever. Still, even though it's a bug, the air-drowning is realistic: Without aquatic plants (and DF currently has no aquatic plants), there's no way to oxygenate the water, so the fish would suffocate if "caged" over a long journey. But, as long as DF is pretending that caged grazers don't need to eat, it should also pretend that caged fish don't need to breathe. If you're going to have a gamey dynamic, you should at least be consistent about it.

Big fish can be caught like small ones, fished onto dry land

Agreed. Within reasonable size constraints (no reeling in whale sharks), of course.

Other thoughts:
* Fish traps might actually make the Trapper labor useful for something?

* Unless we're pretending that all Fisherdwarves are catching their prey by noodling (which they obviously aren't, as they don't get into the water), making the labor require equipment would be a welcome flavor enhancement, at least IMO. Fishing poles, fishing nets, and multi-pronged spears & bolts made specifically for fishing--these last could also feature (optional) cords for retrieval after being thrown/fired.

[Kyubee]

Vermin fish dont repopulate at all

They certainly should, in fact all fish should spawn as vermin, and those of appropriate species should slowly grow into their non-vermin forms--provided that they have enough food & room to do so, of course.

populations die off instantly the first time water either freezes or boils away.

As is appropriate--although I concur with ice only freezing from the surface downward, rather than all at once. Once DF's tile mechanics improves, we should see tiles of only fractional ice: The top 3/7ths is ice, but the lower 4/7ths is still water.
There's also nothing wrong with some water sources being too small, or too isolated, to have fish. Some murky pools contain nothing but pond scum, it's a fact of life.

Big fish (Vermin are fine i think), die if put into water filled aquariums, of drowning, still.

Aquariums are functionally nothing but cages made of glass. If a cage can hold an elephant, an aquarium can certainly hold a sturgeon or whatever. Still, even though it's a bug, the air-drowning is realistic: Without aquatic plants (and DF currently has no aquatic plants), there's no way to oxygenate the water, so the fish would suffocate if "caged" over a long journey. But, as long as DF is pretending that caged grazers don't need to eat, it should also pretend that caged fish don't need to breathe. If you're going to have a gamey dynamic, you should at least be consistent about it.

Big fish can be caught like small ones, fished onto dry land

Agreed. Within reasonable size constraints (no reeling in whale sharks), of course.

Other thoughts:
* Fish traps might actually make the Trapper labor useful for something?

* Unless we're pretending that all Fisherdwarves are catching their prey by noodling (which they obviously aren't, as they don't get into the water), making the labor require equipment would be a welcome flavor enhancement, at least IMO. Fishing poles, fishing nets, and multi-pronged spears & bolts made specifically for fishing--these last could also feature (optional) cords for retrieval after being thrown/fired.

Only one i dont quite like is the last one because of my usual preference to not take away already possible things. Keep the fishing as is, but add in rods and spears as improvements maybe.

[Ninjabread]

This thread may be relevant for non-vermin fishing

As for actual fish farming, do captured vermin not show up in the creatures that you can assign to pit/pond zones? I assumed the ability to catch live fish was for the purpose of fish farming, but I never tried myself.

[GoblinCookie]

I'm tired of being an ecodisaster. Dwarven as it is, fish are an important resource for a lot of my forts. My idea is basically, if you think ahead to catch some live vermin fish, or even regular fish, and place them in a "Pond" zone, you can designate it to a "Fish Farm", where food will be dropped in very frequently, encouraging the fish within to breed.rapidly. if you connect it later to existing oceans or rivers, you can use it to refill lost populations. You could also use this to introduce entirely new species to your waters, if you can somehow get live fish off outside sources without them "drowning".\

For bonus points, oceans dont freeze as deep, meaning the fish dont die off every winter in temperate oceans

Really a moderate amount of fishing should not be an ecodisaster.  The main use of fish farms seems to me to be related to the caravan bringing some fish in barrels and you creating your own pond for them to breed in so as to have an on-site supply of fish.  For fortresses without rivers or ocean access.  Would be more useful when caverns are no longer a sure thing on every single map as well.

[SixOfSpades]

. . . you creating your own pond for them to breed in so as to have an on-site supply of fish.  For fortresses without rivers or ocean access.

Very true, but that's part of the problem: What, precisely, constitutes a valid breeding pond, can the player fabricate it, and can the game recognize it? Simply digging a 1-z pit in solid bedrock, far away from any access to light, oxygen, or nutrients, and dumping in a bucket brigade from the nearest murky pool, obviously should not result in an ideal pond in which hundreds of steelhead trout are likely to grow & thrive.

Factors to consider:
- Surface area. Simple contact with breathable air is one way to oxygenate water, and "aerating" it with pumps/waterwheels should speed up the process (although doing so might also hurt any fish who get too close).
- Depth. Some fish, particularly bigger ones & especially bottom-feeders, simply prefer deeper water.
- Salinity. Marine fish should die in fresh water, and vice versa.
- Flora. Fish can survive on nothing but hand-feeding, but if Toady's going to do this, we should help him do it right. Aquatic plants (and/or fungi), from algae to giant kelp. Both freshwater and marine, both on the surface and underground. This would necessarily take place not before significant Cavern updates.
- Above/Below ground. Exposure to the sun should harm/blind/stunt/etc. cavern fish, and surface fish should likewise be ill-suited for life in the caverns. More importantly, fish should (in general) only know how to eat those plants that their own species is familiar with.
- Soil amount/quality, in which said plants can grow. This would necessarily take place not before significant Farming updates.
- Fish size/population density, in relation to total pond volume.
- Feeding: All edible material thrown into the pond should (eventually) become either fish food, or plant food/compost.
- Predation: Fish getting eaten by animals from outside the pond (birds, alligators, etc.), pond fish eating each other, pond fish eating aquatic vermin.

Bottom Line: Until we the players are able to control all of that and create our own artificial (but very realistic) pond zones with full ecosystems, AND the game is able to recognize them as such, I think we're better off continuing to let worldgen do the work for us. If it's a surface river or lake, or a cavern pool, and there are fish in it, then it's a good place to farm fish. Wall it off and empty some aquariums into it.

Unrelated thought: Fish ladders. We should be able to dig/construct connect shallow pools that enable river-spawning fish to go around otherwise-impassible waterfalls. One completed and designated, some spawning fish might try to use them--and if they're successful, their offspring should try to repeat the process in subsequent years. Includes the potential for sending some of your workers off-site to build a fish ladder downstream from your fort.

[Kyubee]

I think in a pinch, the salinity and surface area could be the only ones cared about until others are added. HHave a base skeleton for conditions and then add onto them as time goes on. have the very basics as a temporary fix n' all that

[SixOfSpades]

I think in a pinch, the salinity and surface area could be the only ones cared about

And temperature--I had to kick myself for forgetting about that one. Obviously, one should not be able to raise tropical fish inside a glacier.

But yes, there could definitely be a 'bare-bones' version, in which we designate the breeding/rearing pond, and the game then determines fish population & growth based on just [ volume, temperature, salinity, & Above/Below ground ]. But as the game matures, I'm definitely hoping for a fully fleshed-out version as well . . . essentially, the old Vivarium idea, but underwater.

[Azerty]

We should extend the concept to any aquatic animal, including some mammals.

I want to see some players try to bred whales!

I think in a pinch, the salinity and surface area could be the only ones cared about

And temperature--I had to kick myself for forgetting about that one. Obviously, one should not be able to raise tropical fish inside a glacier.

But yes, there could definitely be a 'bare-bones' version, in which we designate the breeding/rearing pond, and the game then determines fish population & growth based on just [ volume, temperature, salinity, & Above/Below ground ]. But as the game matures, I'm definitely hoping for a fully fleshed-out version as well . . . essentially, the old Vivarium idea, but underwater.

We could take the same system as in grazing pastures, with plankton and others af food, with possibility to add specific foods such as additional meat for northern pikes.

[GoblinCookie]

Very true, but that's part of the problem: What, precisely, constitutes a valid breeding pond, can the player fabricate it, and can the game recognize it? Simply digging a 1-z pit in solid bedrock, far away from any access to light, oxygen, or nutrients, and dumping in a bucket brigade from the nearest murky pool, obviously should not result in an ideal pond in which hundreds of steelhead trout are likely to grow & thrive.

You actually listed the requirements.

1. Oxygen
2. Light
3. Nutrients

Presently these things aren't properly represented in the game.  We can add algae in as a fourth requirements, we have a suitable pond, we add in algae (or it just grows).  Then we add in vegetarian fish and then if we wish we can add carnivorous fish as well. 

Factors to consider:
- Surface area. Simple contact with breathable air is one way to oxygenate water, and "aerating" it with pumps/waterwheels should speed up the process (although doing so might also hurt any fish who get too close).
- Depth. Some fish, particularly bigger ones & especially bottom-feeders, simply prefer deeper water.
- Salinity. Marine fish should die in fresh water, and vice versa.
- Flora. Fish can survive on nothing but hand-feeding, but if Toady's going to do this, we should help him do it right. Aquatic plants (and/or fungi), from algae to giant kelp. Both freshwater and marine, both on the surface and underground. This would necessarily take place not before significant Cavern updates.
- Above/Below ground. Exposure to the sun should harm/blind/stunt/etc. cavern fish, and surface fish should likewise be ill-suited for life in the caverns. More importantly, fish should (in general) only know how to eat those plants that their own species is familiar with.
- Soil amount/quality, in which said plants can grow. This would necessarily take place not before significant Farming updates.
- Fish size/population density, in relation to total pond volume.
- Feeding: All edible material thrown into the pond should (eventually) become either fish food, or plant food/compost.
- Predation: Fish getting eaten by animals from outside the pond (birds, alligators, etc.), pond fish eating each other, pond fish eating aquatic vermin.

Bottom Line: Until we the players are able to control all of that and create our own artificial (but very realistic) pond zones with full ecosystems, AND the game is able to recognize them as such, I think we're better off continuing to let worldgen do the work for us. If it's a surface river or lake, or a cavern pool, and there are fish in it, then it's a good place to farm fish. Wall it off and empty some aquariums into it.

Unrelated thought: Fish ladders. We should be able to dig/construct connect shallow pools that enable river-spawning fish to go around otherwise-impassible waterfalls. One completed and designated, some spawning fish might try to use them--and if they're successful, their offspring should try to repeat the process in subsequent years. Includes the potential for sending some of your workers off-site to build a fish ladder downstream from your fort.

The interesting question is what do cave fish eat?

[scourge728]

+1

[Kyubee]

Very true, but that's part of the problem: What, precisely, constitutes a valid breeding pond, can the player fabricate it, and can the game recognize it? Simply digging a 1-z pit in solid bedrock, far away from any access to light, oxygen, or nutrients, and dumping in a bucket brigade from the nearest murky pool, obviously should not result in an ideal pond in which hundreds of steelhead trout are likely to grow & thrive.

You actually listed the requirements.

1. Oxygen
2. Light
3. Nutrients

Presently these things aren't properly represented in the game.  We can add algae in as a fourth requirements, we have a suitable pond, we add in algae (or it just grows).  Then we add in vegetarian fish and then if we wish we can add carnivorous fish as well. 

Factors to consider:
- Surface area. Simple contact with breathable air is one way to oxygenate water, and "aerating" it with pumps/waterwheels should speed up the process (although doing so might also hurt any fish who get too close).
- Depth. Some fish, particularly bigger ones & especially bottom-feeders, simply prefer deeper water.
- Salinity. Marine fish should die in fresh water, and vice versa.
- Flora. Fish can survive on nothing but hand-feeding, but if Toady's going to do this, we should help him do it right. Aquatic plants (and/or fungi), from algae to giant kelp. Both freshwater and marine, both on the surface and underground. This would necessarily take place not before significant Cavern updates.
- Above/Below ground. Exposure to the sun should harm/blind/stunt/etc. cavern fish, and surface fish should likewise be ill-suited for life in the caverns. More importantly, fish should (in general) only know how to eat those plants that their own species is familiar with.
- Soil amount/quality, in which said plants can grow. This would necessarily take place not before significant Farming updates.
- Fish size/population density, in relation to total pond volume.
- Feeding: All edible material thrown into the pond should (eventually) become either fish food, or plant food/compost.
- Predation: Fish getting eaten by animals from outside the pond (birds, alligators, etc.), pond fish eating each other, pond fish eating aquatic vermin.

Bottom Line: Until we the players are able to control all of that and create our own artificial (but very realistic) pond zones with full ecosystems, AND the game is able to recognize them as such, I think we're better off continuing to let worldgen do the work for us. If it's a surface river or lake, or a cavern pool, and there are fish in it, then it's a good place to farm fish. Wall it off and empty some aquariums into it.

Unrelated thought: Fish ladders. We should be able to dig/construct connect shallow pools that enable river-spawning fish to go around otherwise-impassible waterfalls. One completed and designated, some spawning fish might try to use them--and if they're successful, their offspring should try to repeat the process in subsequent years. Includes the potential for sending some of your workers off-site to build a fish ladder downstream from your fort.

The interesting question is what do cave fish eat?

I always say that cave fish eat decaying cave material that fall into the water, much like some fish which live in the totally dark Twilight Zone in our world, They could also feed on general cave funguses, or some kind of odd fictional cave plankton