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Author Topic: The Dwarven Language Codified  (Read 82217 times)

voliol

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #105 on: August 03, 2019, 01:40:10 pm »
Quote from: VABritto on August 03, 2019, 01:29:21 pm
Quote from: Superdorf on August 03, 2019, 01:11:35 pm
Quote from: Solitarian on August 03, 2019, 08:16:32 am
Are you familiar with Diggy Diggy Hole, the very dwarfy song by the Yogscast? I translated it! I'm not completely satisfied, as a few lines feel a bit awkward, but overall I am happy with the result. Here it is! Sing it in the shower! Its Dwarven name is Osaleshim - the song of freedom (literally "singing freedom").

This is wonderful! Let's set it to music. :D

For that we need to establish the sounds of certain letters, but it is definitely doable!

One sound I propose is that C has the sound of /t∫/ (aka the sound of ch in church or the sound of C in Italian Cesare). The vowels will be the more complicated part because each should be distinct (since they actually differentiate words)

Loam's posts could/should be used as the foundation for this. (link 1|link 2)

It would be nice to see a voice synthesizer reading dwarven at some point; it might actually make it easier with the vowels as finding a singer able to pronounce that many (possibly tonal) vowels might be difficult on an English-based forum.
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2019, 01:43:13 pm »
I agree entirely. I agree with him that C should be a fricative like ch. I also agree that ng is actually one thing (maybe something like Spanish ñ, Portuguese nh or French and Italian gn). I also support the theory that å is actually ü because it maintains the symmetry of the vowels.

I'd actually suggest he could attempt a suggestion of what the vowels could represent. He said he couldn't know for sure but if anyone is qualified to give a guess it is him
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 01:48:35 pm by VABritto »
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Solitarian

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #107 on: August 03, 2019, 02:44:40 pm »
Quote from: Superdorf on August 03, 2019, 01:11:35 pm
This is wonderful! Let's set it to music. :D

This music already exists.
Here is the original song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0
Here is an 8-bit instrumental version which I very much enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vB5l6Dths4
Here is a piano version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfl6DlLfP74

I don't know (or care, really) about the phonetics of Dwarven, so I'll leave that to you! Depending on the phonetics that are ultimately chosen, the song might need to be changed so that syllables and music match.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 02:47:25 pm by Solitarian »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #108 on: August 03, 2019, 03:52:11 pm »
Current version of the Annals:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Translation:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Vocabulary:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 03:56:12 pm by VABritto »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #109 on: August 04, 2019, 12:28:37 pm »
I have created the first Dwarven puns and wisdom phrases:

Asdob hav-udiz Etägsaràmeshon zis Eshom

There is no greater good (Eshon) than silence (Eshom)

Dural-longArkim var-udiz Durad-longArkim

A dwarf's honor is his beard

Durad lok Dural duthnur-udiz'ver Dur'esh

Beard and Honor are guarded with [one's] fist

Etest-longEtar var-udiz miketar

The King's duty is to reign (I know there is a word for reign, but the language is flexible so people can actually use the word king for to reign)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 01:42:33 pm by VABritto »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #110 on: August 04, 2019, 01:16:00 pm »
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Solitarian

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #111 on: August 04, 2019, 01:32:51 pm »
I love your enthusiasm!

Those sayings seem good to me, though I don't quite understand the first one.

Asdob hav-udiz Etägsaràmeshon Eshom'osh
nothing has biggreatgood beside silence

Your attempt here illustrates an interesting point that I had not considered; Dwarven has no "than" used in comparative phrases like in English. That's a conjunction (and an important one), so I can easily add it to the lexicon. I hereby add the conjunction "zis". So your phrase should now be: Asdob hav-udiz Etagsaràmeshon zis Eshom, nothing has greater good than silence.

The last saying using "etar" as a verb is interesting. We could do that in English too, I guess. Charles II. did not king well, i.e. he did not fulfill the duties of a king satisfactorily (This is not a denunciation of Charles II. He is just the first monarch who came to my mind when I sought an example). I wonder if that usage of etar is not clear enough, though. I could read that as "A king's duty is a king". Perhaps you should use that mik- prefix? Etest-longEtar var-udiz Miketar, the duty of a king is kingship / the state of being a king / doing kingy stuff.
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #112 on: August 04, 2019, 01:44:18 pm »
I edited it to reflect that!

I am adding words to the dictionary and I keep stumbling upon interesting puns so I felt like making phrases with them lol

Do you see any problem in the Annals?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 01:49:43 pm by VABritto »
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Solitarian

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #113 on: August 04, 2019, 02:46:35 pm »
The annals look very good. The only part which seems a little odd to me is Semortilat-longDan aban-udiz Etarlikot Meden. Semortilat = child union. I see what you mean, but to me that suggests their children became incestuously married or something like that! Also, that use of "aban" makes sense, though I think of that being used more in the sense of structures. I suppose the tribe could be metaphorically considered a structure that is "built", so maybe aban does make sense here. Semordan seems redundant to me. You could just say semor or dan to refer to the married couple, right? They are a union and they are a couple. United couple just repeats that, but it is a very minor point.

Other than those tiny things, the annals are great, I think.
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2019, 02:55:57 pm »
Quote from: Solitarian on August 03, 2019, 02:44:40 pm
Quote from: Superdorf on August 03, 2019, 01:11:35 pm
This is wonderful! Let's set it to music. :D

This music already exists.
Here is the original song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0
Here is an 8-bit instrumental version which I very much enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vB5l6Dths4
Here is a piano version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfl6DlLfP74

I don't know (or care, really) about the phonetics of Dwarven, so I'll leave that to you! Depending on the phonetics that are ultimately chosen, the song might need to be changed so that syllables and music match.
listening to it again with tears of pride - definitely want it in dorfen language, like the songs of Simon Swerwer https://www.youtube.com/user/simonswerwer which i can sing along while playing DF.
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"dwarves are by definition alcohol powered parasitic beards, which will cling to small caveadapt humanoids." (Chaia)

VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2019, 02:59:06 pm »
Quote from: Solitarian on August 04, 2019, 02:46:35 pm
The annals look very good. The only part which seems a little odd to me is Semortilat-longDan aban-udiz Etarlikot Meden. Semortilat = child union. I see what you mean, but to me that suggests their children became incestuously married or something like that! Also, that use of "aban" makes sense, though I think of that being used more in the sense of structures. I suppose the tribe could be metaphorically considered a structure that is "built", so maybe aban does make sense here. Semordan seems redundant to me. You could just say semor or dan to refer to the married couple, right? They are a union and they are a couple. United couple just repeats that, but it is a very minor point.

Other than those tiny things, the annals are great, I think.

Child Union would be Tilatsemor. Semortilat means United children (the adjective is semor). In Semordan I am using Semor as an adjective for 'together', to emphasis that they as a unit form this. But in the case of Semordan it is truly rather repetitive so I will change to Dan.

Current version of the Annals:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Translation:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, I added F and G to the dictionary:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173289.msg8005094#msg8005094
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 03:00:50 pm by VABritto »
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Solitarian

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2019, 04:20:00 pm »
Quote from: Pvt. Pirate on August 04, 2019, 02:55:57 pm
listening to it again with tears of pride - definitely want it in dorfen language, like the songs of Simon Swerwer https://www.youtube.com/user/simonswerwer which i can sing along while playing DF.

Oh yeah, I recognize those from SoundSense! I suppose I could work on "translating" those into my Dwarven grammar, but they already use DF's lexicon, so I think I can leave them as they are. Did you try to say my translation of Diggy Diggy Hole along with the music? I want the syllables and rhyme scheme to match. It works for me, but a few lines aren't great when I say them and I was wondering if other people had similar difficulties.

Now I see, VABritto. I misunderstood semor and didn't see it as an adjective. If you want to use that to emphasize the union in semordan, then I think that's fine. The repetition isn't incorrect per se just because I prefer to avoid it. If you like it, then use it! Otherwise the annals make sense to me.
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2019, 04:23:28 pm »
Quote from: Solitarian on August 04, 2019, 04:20:00 pm
Quote from: Pvt. Pirate on August 04, 2019, 02:55:57 pm
listening to it again with tears of pride - definitely want it in dorfen language, like the songs of Simon Swerwer https://www.youtube.com/user/simonswerwer which i can sing along while playing DF.

Oh yeah, I recognize those from SoundSense! I suppose I could work on "translating" those into my Dwarven grammar, but they already use DF's lexicon, so I think I can leave them as they are. Did you try to say my translation of Diggy Diggy Hole along with the music? I want the syllables and rhyme scheme to match. It works for me, but a few lines aren't great when I say them and I was wondering if other people had similar difficulties.

Now I see, VABritto. I misunderstood semor and didn't see it as an adjective. If you want to use that to emphasize the union in semordan, then I think that's fine. The repetition isn't incorrect per se just because I prefer to avoid it. If you like it, then use it! Otherwise the annals make sense to me.

I imagine people would definitely say Semordan but it would probably be seen as a sign of unrefinement. It is repetitive. Proper high class dwarfish (at least in Ultèrzefon) is concise and economic. So I still think you are right and it should just be Dan. It keeps it concise.

Also, I just defined the Letter order in my dwarven dictionary. It is A B D E F G I K C L M N NG O R S SH T TH U V Z Â Á À Ä Ê É È Ë Î Í Ì Ï Ô Ó Ò Ö Û Ú Ù Å.

I am considering Å = Ü (as suggested by Loam in his first post). I am also placing altered sounds together. So T is besides Th and S is besides Sh. I also am considering as if C = Ch (as suggested by Loam). I am also considering Ng its own thing
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 04:28:18 pm by VABritto »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2019, 04:53:19 pm »
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #119 on: August 05, 2019, 04:57:27 am »
Quote from: Solitarian on August 04, 2019, 04:20:00 pm
Quote from: Pvt. Pirate on August 04, 2019, 02:55:57 pm
listening to it again with tears of pride - definitely want it in dorfen language, like the songs of Simon Swerwer https://www.youtube.com/user/simonswerwer which i can sing along while playing DF.

Oh yeah, I recognize those from SoundSense! I suppose I could work on "translating" those into my Dwarven grammar, but they already use DF's lexicon, so I think I can leave them as they are. Did you try to say my translation of Diggy Diggy Hole along with the music? I want the syllables and rhyme scheme to match. It works for me, but a few lines aren't great when I say them and I was wondering if other people had similar difficulties.

Now I see, VABritto. I misunderstood semor and didn't see it as an adjective. If you want to use that to emphasize the union in semordan, then I think that's fine. The repetition isn't incorrect per se just because I prefer to avoid it. If you like it, then use it! Otherwise the annals make sense to me.
i actually don't understand how i could've scrolled past it.
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"dwarves are by definition alcohol powered parasitic beards, which will cling to small caveadapt humanoids." (Chaia)
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