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[Deus Machina]

So previously I've given most melee dorfs shields and all crossbowdorfs bucklers, on info that may now be outdated or originally false.
The premise being that bucklers allow dwarves to carry bolts in their offhand, or use that hand to two-hand a weapon when they would otherwise be too weak/small to single-hand it.
Unfortunately I can't at all find anything that says this is wrong or right, or even where I originally read it. Or even anything on the usage of hands otherwise holding shields/bucklers on the wiki. It's possible I'm a failure in my search-fu master's eyes.

So to clarify my knowledge: Can dwarves holding a shield or buckler also use anything in that hand? Do bucklers offer any benefits in that regard, or are they the same and thus worthless because of shields' greater chance to block?

[scourge728]

ptw

[Telgin]

I'm curious to know, too.  As far as I know, bucklers use the same mechanics as shields, but weigh less and are less effective.  I'd be pretty surprised if they can be used with a weapon in the same hand where a shield can't.  Bugs notwithstanding, of course, since I'm pretty sure dwarves can still sometimes pick up multiple items in one hand.

[Grand Sage]

I had a nice chat about this a while back. The wiki states, and has always stated, that a shield is a piece of armor worn on one arm. However, experience suggests that they are rather held in the hand.

As for your question, i believe that the game allows for you to hold several objects in the same hand, especially in adventure mode. however, you are probably more interested i knowing if they will do that, and if they then will use that other item. Sadly, i dont know, but i suspect it would take quite a workaround just to get them to pick up 3 items in there hands, without strapping one to the body.

[delphonso]

ptw as well.

Perhaps could use some SCIENCE in adventure mode and arena?

[Splint]

Bucklers to my knowledge allow none of those things in the current version - they and shields are used in whatever is considered the "off-hand" for the unit at the time. Having a shield and weapon in one  hand or with a great-weapon that requires the unit to equip it as a multi-grasp weapon also appears to inflict an attack penalty; enemy soldiers using halberds for example, seem to attack much more slowly than battle axe wielding counterparts when wielding a shield.

I have only ever seen exactly one instance of a dwarf using multiple shields and weapons effectively, and they seemed to have somehow gotten affixed to his forearms - no other units did that and I don't know how it happened, but it allowed him to go axes akimbo on some spawn of holistic very effectively.

Main benefit would be in material and weight savings (metal only, wood and leather shields/bucklers, especially good quality ones in my experience, get used to whack things so often that they go through a shield or buckler in every battle.)

- Marksdorfs would benefit from the reduced weight with an increased rate of fire (slightly, I know encumbrance partially affects ranged units' rate of fire.) You offer them added defense for less impact on their effectiveness (I personally don't bother, since I picture crossbows needing two hands to load and fire and if marksdwarves are in a position to need a shield, they have bigger problems going on.)
- Melee fighters benefit from reduced encumbrance, trading defense for agility. Shields are the inverse, encumbering them more but offering better defense to make up for it. Bucklers may make for better trainer shields until your dudes have thier endurance and strength ground up, at which point switching them to shields might be more advisable, since they can then handle the extra weight better.
- Stockpiles benefit from reduced  material cost, allowing you to outfit more dwarves with extra defense for less material, though at the cost of reduced effectiveness.
- If you have an armorer who likes bucklers, then you'll get better results from bucklers than shields, as they'll produce masterwork bucklers much more frequently than they will shields.
- As an addendum, units seem to like abusing their shields offensively, so masterwork modifiers on bucklers or shields (whichever your armorer prefers,) would help them in that regard as well.

These are not science, but observations from someone who uses primarily moderately armored infantry to deal with... Everything, basically, so I have quite a bit of experience in equipping troops, and double and triple checking thier inventories to make sure the idiots have the equipment they're supposed to, as well as carefully monitoring combat logs.

[anewaname]

I have seen that military dwarfs will sometimes hold two objects in one hand if you assign them a uniform containing three hand-held items (I used three squads, created and assigned three uniforms (weapon/weapon/shield, weapon/shield/weapon, and shield/weapon/weapon). I didn't follow up to see what items they would use. This might have been in 43.05.

You can see in the ./raw/objects/item_shield.txt file that bucklers have the same data tags as shields, so they are unlikely to have different properties for usage.

[Deus Machina]

Alright, I'll stick with shields for now...
In the past I have observed--I haven't paid attention lately, and haven't done any science--that dorfs handled a weapon, shield, and crutch just fine.
Someone once said (or I justified way back when) that bucklers strap to the arm; shields may need the arm and hand.
If they have all the same tags, this seems unlikely under current editions.
As for encumbrance, I only produce wooden shields and bucklers when trees are plentiful, but purchase anything available when needed.

[FantasticDorf]

May it be in regards to the size of the sheild too? If you had a absurdly large buster shield, very protective but very heavy on a very tall unit would it be more effective than a regular or outright tiny shield based on the capacity of weight?

If a creature with [EQUIPS] like a yeti can idle mindedly pick up a large weapon and club you with it competently one handed (with no weapon skill), they're probably using it right, but sheilds seem to be hardcoded to always fit in the offhand by design (least until maybe some more control is given by toady to things like dual wielding etc)

[Splint]

I think the "size" and weight may also depend on who made it. I vaguely recall having soldiers using shields looted off frost giant enemies being ridiculously weighed down. Basically they were technically not sized for dwarves, and so were ridiculously large and heavy in an abstract manner.

@ Deus Machina - Make sure you make back up wood shields before every engagement whenever you use them, cause they'll ruin them shockingly quickly.

[FantasticDorf]

So its halfway between a piece of clothing and a weapon item. Strange.

Code: [Select]

item_shield

[OBJECT:ITEM]

[ITEM_SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_SHIELD]
[NAME:shield:shields]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[BLOCKCHANCE:20]
[UPSTEP:2]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]

[ITEM_SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_BUCKLER]
[NAME:buckler:bucklers]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[BLOCKCHANCE:10]
[UPSTEP:1]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
Hmm, what if you went beyond these values, you can make a shield sized for a particular being (without any descriptors i might note) as well as generally large if you wanted the dwarf equivilent of a riot shield or something.

[Deus Machina]

Random speculation: maybe dorfs can carry up to a certain weight in a hand? Or the upstep token makes it take up two spots, or did?
When I have some time, I should do some experiments.

[Telgin]

This isn't really directly related to the original question, but I'm curious what the UPSTEP value even does on a shield, if anything.

[delphonso]

As far as I can tell - there's just about no limit to how many things and how much weight you can carry in one hand. Take - or example - using the carpentry bench in adventurer mode. You'll end up with 4 beds in one hand. Likewise, you can fill a lead cage with dragon corpses and walk around (very slowly).

[UPSTEP] - "Length of gloves or footwear, counted in [LIMB] body parts towards the torso. A value of 1 lets gloves cover the lower arms, a value of 2 stretches a boot all the way over the upper leg and so on. Regardless of the value, none of these items can ever extend to cover the upper or lower body. Shields also have this token, but it only seems to affect weight. "

According to the wiki also seems a bit of a mystery.

[anewaname]

Suppose the dwarf has a shield in his left hand, and he fails his dodge and shield-block attempts, but the attack hits the left arm or left hand. In that case, the shield is functioning as armor. This is just a guess...