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[therahedwig]

What you need to take away from this is that GC is approaching fantasy as if it were scifi, and is unable to handle that others do not see these as the same genre. See also: Dwarves reimagined as slugpeople because it would be more efficient instead of being a symbol and thus a way of understanding the industrial revolution.

I also defend Bumber's expression not to engage. It would lead to all suggestion forum threads devolving into the tea thread if you do engage, and GC doesn't respect other forum goers intellect anyway, so there's more to be gained by bashing your head against a wall.

[Bumber]

A man pretending to be a god is a just one option, it is what happens if we select our own character for the answer as to what we truthfully are but we take a god as what we are claiming to be.  The problem with choosing to be a man is that unless the afterlife exists in your world, you cannot easily use multiple characters to bolster a single worship cult.

You could convince people to become your secret successors. As long as the world settings allow you to play as loyal followers, you could then continue as them.

[thompson]

Can we please not try and rationalise game aspects such as starting a new character after your old one dies? Otherwise we'll need to come up with some explanation for how impulse ramps work, and the strange laws of relatively that allow Collossi to occupy the same volume as a dwarf despite their vastly greater size.

Jokes are fine, but I get the impression this may be serious.

Edit: FWIW the whole idea of consciousness is an odd one and I think I can see what GC is getting at. If free will exists then there must be some way for consciousness to override physics, so magic is just taking that up a few levels. That's a discussion for the"General Discussion" thread, so if anyone wants to ponder the nature of existence further it may be best to do it there.

[Bumber]

Otherwise we'll need to come up with some explanation for how impulse ramps work, and the strange laws of relatively that allow Collossi to occupy the same volume as a dwarf despite their vastly greater size.

Those, at least, are subject to change.

[thompson]

Otherwise we'll need to come up with some explanation for how impulse ramps work, and the strange laws of relatively that allow Collossi to occupy the same volume as a dwarf despite their vastly greater size.

Those, at least, are subject to change.

Rest assured, for every bug Toady slays, three more shall take its place.

[GoblinCookie]

What you need to take away from this is that GC is approaching fantasy as if it were scifi, and is unable to handle that others do not see these as the same genre. See also: Dwarves reimagined as slugpeople because it would be more efficient instead of being a symbol and thus a way of understanding the industrial revolution.

I also defend Bumber's expression not to engage. It would lead to all suggestion forum threads devolving into the tea thread if you do engage, and GC doesn't respect other forum goers intellect anyway, so there's more to be gained by bashing your head against a wall.

I don't respect SOME forum goers intellect for certain because they don't give me any reason to. 

The no-fantasy, no-magic world I am talking about not a fantasy world; this is actually established by the slider itself.  Basically what I was proposing was that we add in a few sci-fi elements in order to enable the self-deification mechanics to not be overly restrictive on the player in non-magic worlds.  These elements are entirely optional, there are no other sci-fi elements in the game except from yourself and you are only such an element if you choose to be.

The problem is that a no-magic world ends up with a situation where the only truthful option is to be just one of the characters you are playing, but those characters are all mortal.  Because the criteria of self-deification is ultimately the 'specialness' of the character self-deifying, if that character dies we cannot use another character to build up the profile of the icon, since any other character competes with the specialness of our first character. 

Without sci-fi, my first character can become special enough to be venerated.  Then he dies and his specialness may remain but now my next character has a hard time becoming special in turn because he's competing with the first character.  If I have the sci-fi option then since all characters are equally puppets of the technological ascendancy, the collective specialness of all characters can add together harmoniously. 

In a fantasy world, the ghost of the first living character can possess the subsequent characters, so the problem is solved provided there *is* a suitable afterlife; but if there isn't you can just play as a god.

You could convince people to become your secret successors. As long as the world settings allow you to play as loyal followers, you could then continue as them.

You could continue to play as them, but it is a specific character you are trying to deify.  Trying to deify the group itself leads to the 'Afterlife for Collective Consciousnesses' problem I mentioned earlier. 

Can we please not try and rationalise game aspects such as starting a new character after your old one dies? Otherwise we'll need to come up with some explanation for how impulse ramps work, and the strange laws of relatively that allow Collossi to occupy the same volume as a dwarf despite their vastly greater size.

Jokes are fine, but I get the impression this may be serious.

Edit: FWIW the whole idea of consciousness is an odd one and I think I can see what GC is getting at. If free will exists then there must be some way for consciousness to override physics, so magic is just taking that up a few levels. That's a discussion for the"General Discussion" thread, so if anyone wants to ponder the nature of existence further it may be best to do it there.

The game already rationalises your playing a new character as you being a spirit that possesses the body of an adventurer or a group of bodies in fortress mode (upcoming release blurs the distinction a bit).  If anything this idea gives you the ability to reject that explanation by clearing defining that you are in fact simply the person you are playing as, at least in this playthrough. 

About the debate, that was really just a passing comment about how a no-magic world isn't necessarily the same as reality.  You seem to have understood what I was saying well, so I'm happy about that. 

[Bumber]

You could continue to play as them, but it is a specific character you are trying to deify.  Trying to deify the group itself leads to the 'Afterlife for Collective Consciousnesses' problem I mentioned earlier.

The successive characters would all be pretending to carry the spirit of the first, in order to receive the perks of being treated like a god. (You'd probably want to have them raise a child to do it, for age consistency, unless you're claiming possession.)

I mean, you could just pull a Jesus and have everyone think the original has ascended to heaven. Then you just have your disciples pretend to receive guidance from you after you're dead. Harder to get caught over messing up details about all previous incarnations' lives.

[thompson]

I think the problem with your suggestion GC is that you're requesting fairly specific features to address a problem that only exists if you play with a specific goal in a specific type of world. That seems more appropriate for a mod, imho. Perhaps there should be some item flags that allow their holder to be viewed with mystique, which would work with artefacts as well so would be generally useful.

Adding post-1400 tech of any form really deserves a thread of its own, rather than a stop-gap to address self-deification in worlds where even the concept of a god doesn't exist.

As an aside, I hope we get raw access to myths people may have in no-magic worlds.

[GoblinCookie]

The successive characters would all be pretending to carry the spirit of the first, in order to receive the perks of being treated like a god. (You'd probably want to have them raise a child to do it, for age consistency, unless you're claiming possession.)

I mean, you could just pull a Jesus and have everyone think the original has ascended to heaven. Then you just have your disciples pretend to receive guidance from you after you're dead. Harder to get caught over messing up details about all previous incarnations' lives.

They will all have to be pretending and that's the problem.  Nobody is inclined to believe in you when you say "I am really a god, and here's what a god is by the way,".  It is still possible, but requires vast reserves of specialness and remember that all the characters are still competing with each-other for specialness.  A specific character you have has to be vastly better than all the other characters, including ones you play before anyone will accept your fake-divinity.

There is another consequence.  Your fake divinity having been accepted means you have now modified the entire perspective and ideology of the world.  Perhaps I don't want to do that, perhaps I want to have the advantages of playing a god rather than a mortal but I don't want to upend the entire worlds culture and belief system?  Hence the idea of being a mind-controlled slave controlled by *something* outside the game world using Post-1400 tech, that is an idea consistent with the ideas of a non-magic world. 

I think the problem with your suggestion GC is that you're requesting fairly specific features to address a problem that only exists if you play with a specific goal in a specific type of world. That seems more appropriate for a mod, imho. Perhaps there should be some item flags that allow their holder to be viewed with mystique, which would work with artefacts as well so would be generally useful.

Adding post-1400 tech of any form really deserves a thread of its own, rather than a stop-gap to address self-deification in worlds where even the concept of a god doesn't exist.

As an aside, I hope we get raw access to myths people may have in no-magic worlds.

I'm not adding in Post-1400 tech here. 

What I am proposing is also very much beyond the scope of modding.

I don't think no-magic worlds will have myths, I rather hope they don't actually. 

[Strik3r]

I don't think no-magic worlds will have myths, I rather hope they don't actually.

from the dev page:

• Non-magical worlds will still have (possibly multiple) creation myths

I'm not adding in Post-1400 tech here. 

The no-fantasy, no-magic world I am talking about not a fantasy world; this is actually established by the slider itself.  Basically what I was proposing was that we add in a few sci-fi elements

sci-fi elements

not Post-1400 tech. 

Wat?

[GoblinCookie]

from the dev page:

• Non-magical worlds will still have (possibly multiple) creation myths

Wat?

That is what I don't understand.  A myth by definition implies some magical/supernatural elements, or else it is just a historical record/scientific theory surely?  I get the idea is for the myths to mechanically decide some procedural elements of the world, so yes a non-magical world could mechanically use the myth framework to establish certain facts but I really think it should be called something else because the terminology is misleading otherwise.  Unless there is some universal "why magic no longer exists" part of the myth at the end, but that falls into the decline/rise of magic trope which I think is in there somewhere.  Calling such a world a non-magic world however is like saying a year is a no-water year because it hasn't rained for the last month. 

It does raise a third category between the 'things we are familiar with' and 'things we have no concept of', 'things which are mythical'.  Convincing folks you are something mythical should sit halfway between things which don't exist and things that are familiar.  Also convincing people of false concepts/entities existence should cause them to reinterpret their mythology in a corrupt fashion. 

Bringing back lost deities/titans
Removing or reawakening magic in the world

This is what I was looking for.  Also thoughts about actually being lost deities coming back to life ourselves. 

[VislarRn]

from the dev page:

• Non-magical worlds will still have (possibly multiple) creation myths

Wat?

That is what I don't understand.  A myth by definition implies some magical/supernatural elements, or else it is just a historical record/scientific theory surely?

I don't think so? Myth beforehand is a metaphorical interpretation, usually confirming some narrative founded deeply in culture. Very similar to fairy tales that carry values and cultural messages over generations. As long as you have literature and/or poetry, you have solid foundation for myths.

[thompson]

The problem is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to convince someone in a no magic world that you are a god, then yes it should be hard and yes it could influence people more broadly. Actions have consequences. If you don't want those consequences then take different actions. You could still start a personality cult or political movement where you are a special non-magical leader.

Or use the magic system to mod in an object with a mind control interaction and remove the magic tag so it appears in a no magic world.

[GoblinCookie]

I don't think so? Myth beforehand is a metaphorical interpretation, usually confirming some narrative founded deeply in culture. Very similar to fairy tales that carry values and cultural messages over generations. As long as you have literature and/or poetry, you have solid foundation for myths.

Your distinction is a little vague, myths are intimately connected to religion in my understanding of history and tend to be forgotten along with the religions that believe in them.  Most Norse mythology for instance was lost along with the conversion of the Scandinavian countries to Christianity.  There are not many instances when the mythology survived intact but the culture changed their religion, though poetry and literature tends to survive that in general, myths do not. 

In Dwarf Fortress, as I understand the dev page myths are supposed to determine how the procedural elements of the world are generated, magic being but one of those elements.  Myths are not really cultural in the DF, they are quite objective in their consequences, they decide how the world is, before any cultures exist.  The cultures end up with potentially corrupted versions of the one-true-myth that the world has. 

Mechanically this works fine for non-magical worlds, it still isn't reality after-all and hence nothing keeps them from having procedural elements as long as these involve no magic/are realistically possible and a story can exist to explain how those elements came about.  The question is simply why are they called myths in this setup when that term implies magic/religion/supernatural?  The 'true story' is this world is going to have to be secular and scientific, which means it is not a myth; or otherwise it is not a no-magic world. 

The problem is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to convince someone in a no magic world that you are a god, then yes it should be hard and yes it could influence people more broadly. Actions have consequences. If you don't want those consequences then take different actions. You could still start a personality cult or political movement where you are a special non-magical leader.

Or use the magic system to mod in an object with a mind control interaction and remove the magic tag so it appears in a no magic world.

The problem is that your actions in a no-magic world are tightly constrained by your inability to *actually* be anything other than a mortal being.  Playing as a personality cult leader (which is what you are doing if you choose your own identity as your worship-front in any world) means the death of that character is the end of the game for that particular *you*.  You are no longer able to influence the worship organisation you created ever again.  This contrasts with a situation where you play as a god, when your character dies you can start another character and assume the same identity again.

If I create a personality cult in a world without an afterlife, the cult may still survive the death of your character if his ideas and accomplishments remain relevant to the present-day.  But your role in this as the player is forever over, you can't turn up and say "I'm really OLD CHARACTER" because they will just respond "you can't be, OLD CHARACTER is dead".  The only way to not have that is for the OLD CHARACTER to convince people he's a god rather than a mortal, which is a hard thing to do in a world with no concept of gods and the new character to also lie, pretending to be the same fake god profile. 

But the technological ascendancy also has another purpose besides allowing you to maintain a multi-character cult.  Think of what happens in a world where magic is rare but exists if you declare yourself to be a technological ascendancy, truthfully or otherwise.  The successful introduction of the concept into that world will undermine the world's supernatural beliefs, since they could just be "sufficiently advanced technology".

[thompson]

I'm failing to see the problem here. Why shouldn't character death be a negative for a cult started by them?

I think another resolution to this problem would be to allow people to play as historical characters. So, you play as the child of the cult leader or second in command who naturally inherits the movement. There must be something I'm missing here, because I really can't see how technological ascendency resolves this.

As an aside, can we really have mind control devices in a no-magic setting? There's no evidence such a thing is possible (well, not something you could carry around with you anyway).