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[DFNewb]

Oh that's the UK bro, this thread is about France.

To which I explicitly compared to the UK, including the obvious "2011 London Riots" and the Fuel protests (explicitly compared against the French situation.

Maybe I didn't include enough words to explain this, though.

I mean the 2 countries are extremely different in history, culture, etc.

France has had 4 or 5 revolutions in the last 300 years. The closest thing the UK has had is the Irish republic stuff.

[DFNewb]

Oh yes I get that. Far right wingers of other countries often try to wink wonk to the Front National. They are like "You don't like foreigners ? We neither, clearly we are the same !"

But since they don't research their thing and get all of their information through medias, they have no idea of what they are talking about, what the FN is or why they will never come close to power.

Last elections we had Sargon of Akkad losing his bowels over that, stopped following him at this point. Dude has no idea about what he's talking about.
It's too soon to take any conclusion on what just happened, but long story short ; in french politics, polls is not what you have to look after. The important variable is : does the movement oilspills ? Does the government fails ?

Last week we had the impression of a wide, grassroot popular anger in the streets of Paris, and this saturday was the important test. The government held no problem, the mass didn't followed, and now normal life will return gradually.

I think the alt-right has been trying to push the buttons on the frustrations of a lot of people. Their obvious public, but also unemployed youth, and people with other frustrations, and, as usual, offer them a scapegoat. I think that's the real reason why they are a bit more successful right now: for some people it worked. But I think there is a limit on that both because it will only convince so many people, and because it will galvanize the rest to move against this.

As it did in France in the last election, in fact. In the second round of votes Macron got the upper hand because many people who wouldn't vote for him would do anything to keep an outright fascist party from power.

Very NPC talking points.

[ChairmanPoo]

I'm curious, actually, and I'd like to hear from your viewpoint what you think will happen: do you think Macron is going to win the next election? Personally, I'd seen FN as a likely pick to get into power next time around because the Socialist Party failed in terms of popularity, Macron looks to be failing in such terms as well, if not enough to cause a government change right away, and Les Republicains appeared to have lost a lot of their traction, with parties like the communist party and UMN not picking up much support in the first place. This is also an outsider's analysis though, and I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

Seems unlikely. There haven't been any recent polls but unless FN became waaaay more popular, it seems unlikely. Bear in mind that voters of pretty much any other party will rally to keep them from reaching the presidency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_French_presidential_election#Opinion_polls
I honestly think that alt-righters have a lowish hard ceiling, and the only way to reach power is if the rest of the parties badly drop the ball.

[Cathar]

Chairman :

The FN try to distance itself from its fascistic roots, but even tho this is not the issue.

The problem with the FN is, it was founded by a litteral traitror. Le Pen dad started his political carreer after the failed military coup against De Gaulle to keep Algerian colonies. Then he participated into the OAS, an organization made of rogue officers who carried out political murders. Then when everything fails because not only he's a traitror, but a failing one at that, he tried his hand at the democratic system.

The fact he got backstabbed by his daughter is karma at work, but people remember where they are coming from. The government will shut down before any of the Le Pen come into office.

Powder Miner :

>do you think Macron is going to win the next election

He is more likely to win, let's say. Change of government can happen, but he's pretty much the only one with a capacity to rule the country. The extremes will never ally with each other, the socialist party is dead. The Republicans can maybe, MAYBE find someone, in which case we will probably have a Macron vs. Rep, and the rep will be swooped

Problem with the Reps is; they are dirty and dirt is dug up right now, and their base hate this with a passion. So don't quote me on that ; but I am confident that Macron can beat democratically anything thrown his way as things go.

Oh also to keep the discussion civil, can we collectively ignore the other guy ?

[ChairmanPoo]

Chairman :

The FN try to distance itself from its fascistic roots, but even tho this is not the issue.

I don't have first hand knowledge of FN, but my general impression is that ALL the alt-right are pretending not to be fascist (but they totally are). They switch their most controversial stuff into code and avoid the most common tropes (eg: pandering past fascist regimes) but the core is there, even if the exact phrasing has changed.

[DFNewb]

Chairman :

The FN try to distance itself from its fascistic roots, but even tho this is not the issue.

I don't have first hand knowledge of FN, but my general impression is that ALL the alt-right are pretending not to be fascist (but they totally are). They switch their most controversial stuff into code and avoid the most common tropes (eg: pandering past fascist regimes) but the core is there, even if the exact phrasing has changed.

It is clear you don't even know what Fascism is.

[Cathar]

Chairman : It's hard to say they ever were fascist. They are not as extreme as the Camelot Du Roy, for exemple...
They are what a far right putschist would look like after the government knocks their teeth out. If you want a good idea of what they want, or what a FN ruled france would look like, you might try to read about Vichy government

[DFNewb]

Chairman : It's hard to say they ever were fascist. They are not as extreme as the Camelot Du Roy, for exemple...
They are what a far right putschist would look like after the government knocks their teeth out. If you want a good idea of what they want, or what a FN ruled france would look like, you might try to read about Vichy government

Didn't you read? Poo says all right wing parties are fascists.

Trump = Fascist apparently.

This is the classic NPC mentality; Everyone who doesn't agree with me is evil. It is really a religious argument and has nothing to do with the policies of the FN for example which poo admits he doesn't know anything about them other than they are fascists.

[Powder Miner]

Chairman : It's hard to say they ever were fascist. They are not as extreme as the Camelot Du Roy, for exemple...
They are what a far right putschist would look like after the government knocks their teeth out. If you want a good idea of what they want, or what a FN ruled france would look like, you might try to read about Vichy government

Haha, oh man, comparing FN to Petain -- THAT is a spicy take. I definitely see what you mean though, the kind of values set Petain was pushing.

[ChairmanPoo]

Chairman : It's hard to say they ever were fascist. They are not as extreme as the Camelot Du Roy, for exemple...
They are what a far right putschist would look like after the government knocks their teeth out. If you want a good idea of what they want, or what a FN ruled france would look like, you might try to read about Vichy government

*shrug*
Really, I see very little difference and therefore make little distinction between authoritarian ultraconservative far right and fascism, not least because there seems to be a two-way connection between the two.  Fsscist parties have been given political power in the past by the conservative right (eg Zentrum), and conservative parties have given harbour to former fascists in the hardest parts of their right wing when it  suited (eg Fraga)

[Cathar]

Chairman : It's hard to say they ever were fascist. They are not as extreme as the Camelot Du Roy, for exemple...
They are what a far right putschist would look like after the government knocks their teeth out. If you want a good idea of what they want, or what a FN ruled france would look like, you might try to read about Vichy government

Haha, oh man, comparing FN to Petain -- THAT is a spicy take. I definitely see what you mean though, the kind of values set Petain was pushing.

Her niece is not called Marion-Maréchal for nothing, you know

*shrug*
Really, I see very little difference and therefore make little distinction between authoritarian ultraconservative far right and fascism, not least because there seems to be a two-way connection between the two.

Fair enough. The distinction between extreme, antisemitic morale authoritarianism and fascism is slim, but hey that's where we're at. I'm just saying they are not even the worst of the bunch, which is why I see "pupular uprisings" in Paris with an mountain of salt, especially when you see the violent ones carrying national flags.

Also, I followed the stream. That shit is gold. You see cops in yellow vests, and at some point you hear a discussion where a guy warns the film maker, that the royalists are disguising themselves as antifas to break into buildings. Gold.

[Teneb]

Chairman : It's hard to say they ever were fascist. They are not as extreme as the Camelot Du Roy, for exemple...
They are what a far right putschist would look like after the government knocks their teeth out. If you want a good idea of what they want, or what a FN ruled france would look like, you might try to read about Vichy government

Haha, oh man, comparing FN to Petain -- THAT is a spicy take. I definitely see what you mean though, the kind of values set Petain was pushing.

Her niece is not called Marion-Maréchal for nothing, you know

*shrug*
Really, I see very little difference and therefore make little distinction between authoritarian ultraconservative far right and fascism, not least because there seems to be a two-way connection between the two.

Fair enough. The distinction between extreme, antisemitic morale authoritarianism and fascism is slim, but hey that's where we're at. I'm just saying they are not even the worst of the bunch, which is why I see "pupular uprisings" in Paris with an mountain of salt, especially when you see the violent ones carrying national flags.

Also, I followed the stream. That shit is gold. You see cops in yellow vests, and at some point you hear a discussion where a guy warns the film maker, that the royalists are disguising themselves as antifas to break into buildings. Gold.

By royalists you mean monarchists? i.e. people that want a monarchy again. If so, are they becoming a problem in France, even if a minor one?

I'm asking because monarchists were amongst the groups that enabled fascism to win the last election in my country. So it'd be interesting to know if it's an international thing or not.

[DFNewb]

Chairman : It's hard to say they ever were fascist. They are not as extreme as the Camelot Du Roy, for exemple...
They are what a far right putschist would look like after the government knocks their teeth out. If you want a good idea of what they want, or what a FN ruled france would look like, you might try to read about Vichy government

Haha, oh man, comparing FN to Petain -- THAT is a spicy take. I definitely see what you mean though, the kind of values set Petain was pushing.

Her niece is not called Marion-Maréchal for nothing, you know

*shrug*
Really, I see very little difference and therefore make little distinction between authoritarian ultraconservative far right and fascism, not least because there seems to be a two-way connection between the two.

Fair enough. The distinction between extreme, antisemitic morale authoritarianism and fascism is slim, but hey that's where we're at. I'm just saying they are not even the worst of the bunch, which is why I see "pupular uprisings" in Paris with an mountain of salt, especially when you see the violent ones carrying national flags.

Also, I followed the stream. That shit is gold. You see cops in yellow vests, and at some point you hear a discussion where a guy warns the film maker, that the royalists are disguising themselves as antifas to break into buildings. Gold.

Since when are right wingers for big government?

This must be the European Right v Left dynamic.

I guess if you think rightwingers are fascist then yea rightwingers suck.

I go by the American spectrum that works by defining the following:

Leftwing = bigger governemnt
Rightwing = smaller government

I don't understand the EU left v right wing dynamic as both sides are the exact same, they are for totalitarian government.

[Cathar]

Teneb : Precisely, tho "royaliste" is the term here. Historically they were crushed by Thiers at the beggining of the third republic. It's kind of a funny story actually.

Since the first revolution slaughter the totality of the royal family, their partesans had to find a suitable replacement, and there were two candidates. Problem they never agreed with each other, and for a long time you had two royalist factions.
Shit happens, here comes Thiers with the third republic and he needs a coalition government, and trick them both to roll with the republic as the way to unite them. They were never a relevant political force since then (1872 I think, don't quote me on that). But yeah, every now and then you will find morrons carrying white flags or a fleur de lys breaking shit during protests.

Also : are they a threat ? No. Even the socialist government, the weakest we had during the Vth, laughed them off. They will bang a stick on a pan to make noise when we pass reforms like gay marriage but this is the extent of their political relevance

[ChairmanPoo]

Since the first revolution slaughter the totality of the royal family, their partesans had to find a suitable replacement, and there were two candidates. Problem they never agreed with each other, and for a long time you had two royalist factions.
Shit happens, here comes Thiers with the third republic and he needs a coalition government, and trick them both to roll with the republic as the way to unite them. They were never a relevant political force since then (1872 I think, don't quote me on that). But yeah, every now and then you will find morrons carrying white flags or a fleur de lys breaking shit during protests.

...going off a tangent here but I have to say that I have the utmost contempt for Bourbon loyalists. I'd very much rather have a presidentialist republic than have to endure  one of these inbred morons patronizing me every Christmas