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Author Topic: Ethical vs. Practical  (Read 3901 times)

OmahaMH

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Ethical vs. Practical
« on: November 20, 2018, 09:30:36 am »

Where do you go on the practical-vs-ethical scale?

I slaughtered a bunch of injured war dogs after a battle because they weren't useful in their current role any more.  Ethically?  Abhorrent!  But from a practical point of view, it was the best use of those resources. 

I already expect that most answers will be in the practical camp since this is the community that suggests eliminating greedy nobles by pounding them into the ground with a drawbridge.
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Cathar

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2018, 10:45:42 am »

Ethical if possible, practical if necessary, that's how I work. I treat prisonners well, and release them if it's safe to do so. I'm not too much moved by animal-related ethics and I tend to disregard them (that's our food, we eat it, its cool), unless they are related to a character, as a pet or otherwise. I don't slaughter wounded war dogs because I know it will pain their handler.

I always try peaceful solutions first, but shall it fail I have no problem sending the army solving the problem. I never kill my citizen unless it is absolutely absolutely necessary. Like they are vampires with a kill count in my fort.

Deus Machina

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2018, 11:00:24 am »

Generally ethical here. If the war dogs can walk, they're worth saving. If nothing else, as lookouts and kobold alarms.
Then again, I do make a point to hand that one weak, slow, fragile, unskilled new dwarf a pick to tap the volcano.
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OmahaMH

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2018, 11:21:36 am »

Generally ethical here. If the war dogs can walk, they're worth saving. If nothing else, as lookouts and kobold alarms.
Then again, I do make a point to hand that one weak, slow, fragile, unskilled new dwarf a pick to tap the volcano.

It probably makes me sound like even a bigger jerk to say that I'm in the middle of a controlled dogsplosion so there are plenty of pups that can replace the injured ones.  :-X
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Bumber

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2018, 01:50:22 pm »

I make a habit of slaughtering any non-adopted animals the migrants bring with them. FPS reasons, and the grazers are just going to end up starving to death standing around the meeting hall anyways.

I seal my werebeast-infected dwarves inside walls (single-tile cells) just in case I want to use their curse for something later.

I feel kind of guilty about sealing away one of my dwarves (that kept throwing tantrums and destroying important levers,) in a cell until he died of thirst. I could've run an insane asylum instead.

Other than that, I'm pretty ethical with my dwarves.
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SQman

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2018, 02:37:29 pm »

Useless animals in my forts usually get slaughtered for sweet leather, but if my stockpiles are overflowing with meat, I turn into a merciful god and stuff all the animals into a single crappy cage and sell them to traders. Crippled war animals are beasts of honor and it would be disgraceful to deny them the glory of death in combat.

Caged prisoners get yeeted into lava or a spike pit, made fight rookies on the arena (after being disarmed, of course). Quick, painless death, unless said rookies are trained to be wrestlers. I used to chain prisoners near a bridge and make a dwarf pull the lever repeatedly so if the gobbo got smashed it was his own fault. As you can see I treat my prisoners ethically.

Werebeasts get the atom smasher treatment, vampires do my taxes in their own comfy rooms.

Probably the worst things I do is taking no precautions while doing plumbing. My dwarves are lucky if construction of a well ends only with soggy beards. It's a little bit worse with magma channels.
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OmahaMH

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2018, 02:44:14 pm »

I make a habit of slaughtering any non-adopted animals the migrants bring with them. FPS reasons, and the grazers are just going to end up starving to death standing around the meeting hall anyways.

Hey, me too!  Unless they include or complete a mating pair of a useful species.

Useless animals in my forts usually get slaughtered for sweet leather, but if my stockpiles are overflowing with meat, I turn into a merciful god and stuff all the animals into a single crappy cage and sell them to traders. Crippled war animals are beasts of honor and it would be disgraceful to deny them the glory of death in combat.

It was through their sacrifice that the dwarves they protected were able to survive to eat another meal, and through their final assignment that those same dwarves had a meal to eat.  There is honor there!
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2018, 07:21:18 pm »

The apex of the practical-vs-ethical-scale is tipping the scale so ethical and practical are aligned perfectly. Slaughtering severely injured war dogs isn't all that unethical, equivalent to slaughtering a severely injured horse, or antarctic explorers butchering their own sled dogs to stave off starvation. In situations of life or death, where food, security and space come at a premium, a war dog with a broken spine is just going to die horrendously in war. Much better a quick death from a Dwarf, than a slow death from a Goblin.

I try to follow Dwarven ethics because they are practical. The Dwarves value craftsdwarfship, martial prowess, the only real key tenet of Dwarven ethics I routinely bend is their respect for law - but I imagine, it is perfectly fine to execute the letter of the law if its interpretation is appropriate. A good hammerer is a poor hammerdwarf in battle, wielding a fine adamantine hammer :P

Likewise treating your Dwarves to great rooms, fantastic food, a variety of drinks, good sanitation, healthcare and security isn't just ethical, it's conducive towards a robust Fortress.

On the topic of ‼SCIENCE‼ is usually where ethics tend to suffer in favour of practicality. The unintended consequences and collateral damages incurred tend to require the voiding of ethical constraints, if extreme results are to be expected...

TubaDragoness

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2018, 09:31:07 am »

Hard lean towards ethical. I have never slaughtered cats or dogs (even before gelding was a thing) and avoid buying their meat or leather from traders. Dwarves are only expendable if trying to save them jeopardizes the rest of the fort (ie that one fisher that somehow didn't get turned off and is still outside when the siege comes). Grazing pets are attempted to be cared for, and strays are allowed to reach full size before slaughter for more reasons than just yield. Every baby born into my fort gets a name.

And yet I create random bridges to fling people around because it's funny and my most missed part of 40d is the ability to hit things so hard they fly into a wall and explode.
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Astrid

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2018, 10:22:17 am »

Well, they still explode if they fall deep enough.

On the note of grazers that immigrants bring along. I tend to pasture some of them in front of the entry if suitable grass is avaible instead of slaughtering them outright. Has a few risks and benefits.

My ethics depends on practical situations tho. pun intended.
If i get a werebeast visitor its preferredly trapped and then killed once turned, same with Vampires. I detest those murderous monsters, they aint gonna get another kill if i can prevent that.
On the contrary. My cat skull totems sell rather well...
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sketchesofpayne

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2018, 09:06:33 pm »

War dogs that survive the fight, rather than dying in battle and going to Canine-Valhalla, earn a DFhack full-heal from me.  Other animals, not so much.  Often livestock gets sacrificed on the altar of FPS.  And if they're injured they get moved to the front of the line.

I'm as ethical as the game will allow me to be.  When I capture a bunch of elves I'd rather disarm them, draw a dick on their forehead, and send them back to their homeland in shame with a slap on the bum.  Being able to ransom them would be cool.  As it stands I use them to train marksdwarves in 'the crundle pit.'

I've exiled a chronic tantrum-thrower to the caverns once.  This was before I could 'expel' them in-game.

Nobles haven't been an issue in the past as I usually don't bother with setting up 'justice' elements.  If their mandate is violated the noble gets a little cranky and nothing else comes of it.  Most of the time my nobles ask for things like bucklers, quivers, or battle axes so I just give'em what they want.

When a dwarf dies on my watch they get a small tomb with a cabinet, sarcophagus, and an engraved slab.  Military dwarves get a bigger engraved tomb.

I keep planning to make a spartan bootcamp style fort, but I always end up building the dwarves a comfortable, prosperous mountain hall.

If I've ever needed to get rid of a dwarf for one reason or another I give them a weapon and order them down into the caverns to kill whatever the current forgotten beast is living down there.  Because, seriously, there's never not a forgotten beast in the caverns.
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Saiko Kila

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2018, 02:49:25 am »

I look at ethics from different perspective. If I see that a petitioner (merc, monster slayer, dancer, scholar or some such) has a wife or husband in my fort, I allow him or her even if I have population high enough. Also if this is an old widow looking for work I allow too, especially if close to death.

I see no ethical difference between dogs, cats and pigs, except cats are most annoying and dogs and other war-trainable animals are best used in the field. Fortunately cats have natural explorer abilities, so I throw a pair of them into caverns to explore, and replace when necessary. As for war-trainable animals, they are uncaged after becoming adults. This is a difference to other animals, which are caged after birth (unless grazers), and only several of them are kept outside.

By the way, despite using war animals, thanks to using trained military I don't really have much injuries amongst anyone. My war dog is more likely to die from old age than from battle wounds. Every year some of the dogs die of old age (I have 70 dogs at the moment), while rarely is one injured or killed in combat. I don't count dogs chained and used as bait (along with cats) outside, but even they are quite safe, once I've built drawbridge curtains around every chain area.

As for nobles, they don't act as true nobles (fortunately), so I'm nice to them. I do not have justice system, but they don't grumble. You have as noble nobles as you deserve (read: let them).
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anewaname

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2018, 12:54:12 pm »

I do butcher horribly wounded animals to get the blinking "+" off my screen, but not horribly wounded pets. I suspect I am in the "ethical where possible but practical matters come first" camp. In a recent raise-the-gate-to-block-the-FB event, I waited until the armorer was at the gate to give the order, because the others were less valuable professions.

Then again, I do make a point to hand that one weak, slow, fragile, unskilled new dwarf a pick to tap the volcano.
This amuses me greatly. It is a player-developed custom/ritual/tradition in which the dwarfs of your forts sacrifice one of their own to the volcano in exchange for the everlasting heat of Armok's blood.

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forgotten_idiot

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2018, 06:07:14 am »

Is it ethical to put a tantruming dwarf (who I can't expel, since his wife is a legendary spearmaster and my militia commander) in a cage and lock the door until he dies of hunger and thirst? My dwarves need protection, so I think that needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Ethical vs. Practical
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2018, 07:40:59 am »

Is it ethical to put a tantruming dwarf (who I can't expel, since his wife is a legendary spearmaster and my militia commander) in a cage and lock the door until he dies of hunger and thirst? My dwarves need protection, so I think that needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
No, it's not ethical. It is utilitarian (and a logic that has been used to defend atrocities committed in the name of the betterment of mankind or whatnot).
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